Helmet color and visibility

[budgie45]

I always try to wear light colour helmets and gear.. never owned a black helmet..never understood bike riders that like to dress like a ninja all black..

 

[XPEHBAM]

So lets paint all the fire truck black and remove their lights because that 1 out of 999 will still run in to you.
You're not getting it. Hi Viz doesn't make up for defensive riding, it enhances it.

It's you who's not getting it: whether or not you wear all matte black gear or highly reflective hiviz gearing with lit up christmas lights all over you & your bike you're still going to ride like you're invisible, yes? or will you assume that everyone sees you and all's peachy now?

.....if the end result is the same (you're *STILL* going to ride as if you were invisible) then there's no value in this hiviz stuff. nothing changed. it's exactly as it was before.

If its not exactly as it was before (ie you now ride happily assuming everyone sees you) then, well, good luck to you! you won't last long.

 

[Enchanter]

It's you who's not getting it: whether or not you wear all matte black gear or highly reflective hiviz gearing with lit up christmas lights all over you & your bike you're still going to ride like you're invisible, yes? or will you assume that everyone sees you and all's peachy now?

.....if the end result is the same (you're *STILL* going to ride as if you were invisible) then there's no value in this hiviz stuff. nothing changed. it's exactly as it was before.

If its not exactly as it was before (ie you now ride happily assuming everyone sees you) then, well, good luck to you! you won't last long.

Hmm, why is it either one or the other? Why can't we ride defensively and wear something that helps people see us? One is active safety, the other is passive safety. If one person sees us sooner, it helps. And the cool thing about it, is that it doesn't require additional thought. We can remain vigilant on our active avoidance skills / riding. Why are firetrucks a different color? Why are traffic cones orange? Why do road workers and law enforcement wear orange vests? Why do hunters wear orange vests? Because it helps them be seen. Not one of those people are told or trained to rely on the vests to keep them safe.

Not a single person in this thread has claimed or stated that they are putting all their faith in the color of the gear they wear. You are trying to morph that into the argument.

Do you turn your headlights off during daylight because you ride as if you are invisible?* Do you place your faith in the headlights to be seen? No, of course not. It is the same thing. Headlights help us to be seen, bright colors do the same thing.

*Yes I know that there isn't an 'off' switch for your headlights. There is a US law mandating headlights are on when the engine is running. Why? Wait for it.....it helps us be seen.

 

[XPEHBAM]

Hmm, why is it either one or the other?

It's not one or the other. It's that "the other" adds nothing to the "one". Will you ride any differently if you're wearing hiviz as compared to not hiviz? no? then it doesn't add anything to you either.

people that pay attention will see you whether or not you're bright orange. people that don't pay attention won't.

 

[Gary856]

people that pay attention will see you whether or not you're bright orange. people that don't pay attention won't.

What makes you think conspicuity changes nothing? If you were a road crew working next to traffic, would you rather wear hi-viz or drab-colored clothing for your own safety? If you don't believe hi-viz stands out, do you not believe camouflage obscures either? If hi-viz only makes 10% more people see you sooner, you've gained a measure of safety for free.

 

[Enchanter]

It’s not ‘if’ they will see me, it’s ‘when’. Helping someone see me at a greater distance is a benefit to me and them.

If they see me at a greater distance, then there absolutely is a benefit. It doesn’t matter how I ride.

To rephrase my first post, whether you know it or not, your headlights are helping people see you. I highly suspect that you don’t ride any differently. Adding bright colored gear is exactly the same thing.

I can imagine that motorcyclists bitched about the mandatory headlight law in the mid 70’s too.

 

[XPEHBAM]

What makes you think conspicuity changes nothing?

it changes nothing in what I do.

whether or not Im in hiviz I do not assume people see me. I don't have these thoughts like that other dude in this thread here about "not if they see me but when they see me". I am of the mindset that they DONT see me. ever. and ride accordingly.

 

[XPEHBAM]

It’s not ‘if’ they will see me, it’s ‘when’. Helping someone see me at a greater distance is a benefit to me and them.

If they see me at a greater distance, then there absolutely is a benefit. It doesn’t matter how I ride.

see, you're still talking about people that pay attention.
that's not all people - that is a subset of people. all these wonderful benefits you're talking about apply to that subset of people. there's another subset of people that will not see you and it does not matter what you wear / dont wear / do / dont do / etc. they just wont see you.

it's because of them that it doesnt matter. you need to take those people into consideration (especially those people, Id say) when you go on and on about how somebody else will see you from a far. it doesn't matter if that person sees you! what matters is the twit next to you who decides to change lanes without looking over the shoulder, mirror, etc. what matters is the asshole running a redlight (knowingly! because hey, I can make that yellow): so don't be quick to get off the line first without checking for those redlight runners first. etc. your hiviz wouldn't do jack shit for you in these situations. less than jack shit actually, it just gives you false sense of security (oh, Im sorry, sense of "benefits").

all that matters is how you ride. you're supposed to know better.

 

[tzrider]

it changes nothing in what I do.

whether or not Im in hiviz I do not assume people see me. I don't have these thoughts like that other dude in this thread here about "not if they see me but when they see me". I am of the mindset that they DONT see me. ever. and ride accordingly.

This is a valid mindset and I think many of us share it.

At the same time, it's possible that a lot of people do see us today and we are only dealing with a small subset who don't. If the belief that nobody sees us leads us to wear gear that is less conspicuous it could lead to an even worse experience than we would other wise have.

That said, my gear isn't especially conspicuous either, other than a HiViz helmet.

 

[justanotherg20]

It's not one or the other. It's that "the other" adds nothing to the "one". Will you ride any differently if you're wearing hiviz as compared to not hiviz? no? then it doesn't add anything to you either.

people that pay attention will see you whether or not you're bright orange. people that don't pay attention won't.

It's 9:45 pm when I post this. It'll be close to midnight when I leave work and go home, and there are going to be a bunch of situations where I'm going down some pretty major streets and am the first one to come to a red light. I'm a sitting duck; there is no action I can take to prevent a car from rear-ending me.

Can't run the red since there are other cars going through the intersection, since there isn't anyone front of me I can't filter and sit between two SUV's and let them take the risk of getting ass-pounded.

But if I have hi-viz (or in my case, a backpack with an extra bike light on it, up high hopefully around driver eye level) I have a slightly better chance of the car seeing me. And I'll take it.

 

[Climber]

It's not one or the other. It's that "the other" adds nothing to the "one". Will you ride any differently if you're wearing hiviz as compared to not hiviz? no? then it doesn't add anything to you either.

people that pay attention will see you whether or not you're bright orange. people that don't pay attention won't.

I'm not sure why you have a burr up your ass to discount the benefits of higher visible helmets. It does make a difference. Period. Even though a percentage aren't going to look to see if you're coming, the vast majority will, it's those people whom you want to see you when they make the effort.

As to the others, yeah, we have to always assume that drivers aren't going to see you and act accordingly.

But, with higher vis helmets, we're reducing the number that we have to react to in the end. That is always a good thing.

 

[XPEHBAM]

Even though a percentage aren't going to look to see if you're coming, the vast majority will, it's those people whom you want to see you when they make the effort.

actually what I want is for the ones that don't look to, you know, look. I'd be a lot happier with that, than an already-paying-attention person to see me half a second earlier.

You guys do you. Rely on your hiviz and be merry.

I'll do my thing.

 

[berth]

We can pretend were invisible and act accordingly, which just suggests that we do better at being more visible.

Being more visible, increasing the chances that we are seen, makes us less surprising. Less "he came from no where".

While folks may have a bit a jealousy when we're lane splitting simply because we're going forward when they're not, what really irks folks is when we're "suddenly" right there beside them. Especially if we have a "loud pipe".

It scares the pants off of people. It scares the pants off of me.

Obviously what we where or how we look is meaningless in this scenario, but the overall point is that, especially on the road, people hate surprises. Anything that has an opportunity to lower the surprise effect on others is a good thing. It makes us safer by making them aware. It lowers their "hatred" of riders and bikes. Because a lot of it, I feel, comes from the surprise factor of motorcycles (outside of the rev bombing your open pipes in the neighborhood on your way to work at 5am).

No, I doubt it can't be measured well, doesn't mean it doesn't have an effect.

 

[Gary856]

it changes nothing in what I do.

whether or not Im in hiviz I do not assume people see me. I don't have these thoughts like that other dude in this thread here about "not if they see me but when they see me". I am of the mindset that they DONT see me. ever. and ride accordingly.

It's delusional to presume your ninja skill is so great that you can survive without being seen. You're alive only because people do see you, and it's silly to argue against maximizing that. You can make your own fashion choices without discounting the benefits of hi-viz; it's like arguing against quitting smoking or eating healthier.

 

[Enchanter]

actually what I want is for the ones that don't look to, you know, look. I'd be a lot happier with that, than an already-paying-attention person to see me half a second earlier.

You guys do you. Rely on your hiviz and be merry.

I'll do my thing.

With all due respect, you aren’t paying attention or intentionally ignoring the discussion.

To your first point: Hi-viz gear can cause people to see you when they normally would not.

And the second: Not one single person has stated that riders should rely on hi-viz gear. Not one. You are arguing with nobody but yourself. You have created the opinion that you disagree with.

 

[dravnx]

Beat me to it.

 

[XPEHBAM]

It's delusional to presume your ninja skill is so great that you can survive without being seen. You're alive only because people do see you, and it's silly to argue against maximizing that. You can make your own fashion choices without discounting the benefits of hi-viz; it's like arguing against quitting smoking or eating healthier.

my helimot suit is half black half bright yellow. my helmet is bright red. I don't wear camouflaged gear, you know, and it's not like I'm advocating being as not visible as possible.

at the same time I do not for one single second assume that people see me, regardless of bright colors. I believe your time would be better spent focusing on defensive riding, spotting idiots early and moving away from them.

You had a good way of putting it up above there: consider the gear color more of a fashion choice than anything else.

 

[mackdaddy]

It's 9:45 pm when I post this. It'll be close to midnight when I leave work and go home, and there are going to be a bunch of situations where I'm going down some pretty major streets and am the first one to come to a red light. I'm a sitting duck; there is no action I can take to prevent a car from rear-ending me.

Can't run the red since there are other cars going through the intersection, since there isn't anyone front of me I can't filter and sit between two SUV's and let them take the risk of getting ass-pounded.

But if I have hi-viz (or in my case, a backpack with an extra bike light on it, up high hopefully around driver eye level) I have a slightly better chance of the car seeing me. And I'll take it.

I pull the brake lever on & off in these situations. Get that brake light going

 

[Killroy1999]

[YOUTUBE]xotskfAm5_Q[/YOUTUBE]



I made this video in 2015.

This is how the motorcyclists look from the car driver’s point of view.

I am not trying to be a preacher, but wearing Hi-viz yellow or white gets you noticed better from other road users.
And wearing dark color gear, the rider / motorcycle blend into the background, easily becomes invisible.

(You can see it in the first two examples in the video. )

BTW, at the time when I made this video, I went to some local motorcycle shops, and asked why they stock only dark colored helmet.
(Roughly 80% of the helmets they stock are some sort of black (gloss black, flat black, gunmetal, that sort of thing). About 10 % are gray, sliver helmets. And than, a little bit of the graphic model. Solid white is almost non-existent.)
The answers were very simple. Everyone wants to buy  black helmet. (And matt black sells better than gloss black. Nobody wants solid white helmet, thus, they don’t stock them.)
When I look around, it seems right. The majority of the riders are wearing black or dark gray helmets.

Another interesting thing is that the all cruiser riders (in my video) who had female passengers, they equipped girls with t-shirt, skirt, no gloves, slip-on shoes, etc (basically no protective gear other than helmet).

Besides gear color, an important but often neglected thing is,

Dazzle Camouflage effect.



If you like black, then, that’s what you want to ride / wear, no matter what people say.
Solid black is actually better than the gear with too busy graphics.

Ever heard of “dazzle camouflage” ?

During WW1 and 2, they painted the ships with complex geometric patterns with contrasting colors. Dazzle camouflage is not about making ships invisible. It’s about disruption, confusion. It makes it difficult to judge the size and the shape of the target (ship), makes it difficult to judge the speed and the direction of the target, as well as the distance to the target.

http://io9.com/an-illustrated-history-of-unbelievably-camouflaged-ship-676257937

You can create the same effect with some motorcycle gear with “dazzling” graphics.

Better to wear, solid color gear, preferably your suit & helmet in the same color, no busy graphics / logos.

Solid white full face + Hi-Viz yellow Aerostich, with auxiliary lights.



[YOUTUBE]Yt9vOYwz5J8[/YOUTUBE]


Add some reflective material / auxiliary lights is a good idea,also.

To split hairs on the visibility, I think that a solid white helmet is obviously more visible than a dark color helmet as illustrated, but look in the video @1:00 how the white helmet blends into the only small amount of glare on the windshield.

I do agree that dazzle camouflage confuses identification, direction, range and speed, yet a simple checker pattern -like seen on emergency vehicles - seems to be a positive for visibility. When observing solid hi-vis, I would not recommend it, because if someone is wearing a solid hi-viz puffy jacket, I think the blob is visible, but confusing, perhaps too glaring and too much of a good thing. I think that hi-vis is best in moderation or a pattern more checker like.

While I agree that the solid hi vis is brighter, the lack silhouettes gets washed out and I think that can be visually confusion like a glaring headlight. So I would disagree with the video below that the solid hi vis is more visible. Yes, splitting hairs.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOJ60l3E9jk[/youtube]

 

[Climber]

White or hi-vis helmets are not going to make all risks go away, but it's always a good thing to reduce risks any manner that you can.

Saying that it doesn't matter is not accurate. Every little or big thing you can do to assure you get home safely after each ride is a step in the right direction.