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Holy Shit! Second Boeing 737 Max 8 crashes in a year! - (Thread references events from 2019.)

Haven't read the thread at all, but I'll say I flew Southwest this past weekend to SC, and had to have a layover both ways. I ended up on the 737 Max during 3 of the 4 legs. It felt perfectly safe. I knew each time and was anxious for the first few minutes of the flight. The last pilot from Midway to here seemed to make light of it and came on saying he was going to fly it like he stole it. It took the edge off.


I feel like at this point they have instructed the pilots to look for anomalies and takeover if something goes wrong. I doubt there will be more incidents but I guess caution is better than crashes
 
Oh Brett.....I can almost see you at the bottom of the rabbit hole. Don't worry bud, I'll try and throw you a rope.

Yes, you've mostly described it right. But it's late, and I've been on duty for 12 hours now, so I'm to beat to access the brain power to describe it so here's a decent article that describes it, and Boeing's reasons for not disclosing it in its manuals.

https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-...aracteristics-augmentation-system-mcas-jt610/

And this one

https://www.google.com/amp/s/phys.org/news/2019-03-ethiopian-airlines-mcas-boeing-max.amp

Of important note, there are ways to override the MCAS system. It's very similar to a trim runaway. It honestly sounds like these two groups of pilots failed to do just that. That's not to say the system isn't flawed, but that these pilots failed to follow the procedure. I don't fly a Boeing, never have. But everything I have flown has a way to completely cut a system out of the loop, and there is a way to do it on the 737 just like every other type I am certificated to fly.

It honestly sounds like a flaw in software that shouldn't have gotten these guys, did. And the accident chain involved a flawed system, and guys who had poor systems knowledge that should have transferred over from the trim system directly into the MCAS system since they are so similar. The way the article describes it is as if it was a stick pusher even, not a trim runway (which sounds like an MCAS'ism). I hope that that's making sense, and I'll try and circle back to this tomorrow. It's go home day tomorrow, and I'll have one objective on my mind.... trying to get home when I'm done.
Mikey, thanks for the reply, I understand being fried so I appreciate the effort.
 
Remember, "anecdote does not equal data"
I appreciate that you are giving a lot of good info, but your inability to validate anyone else's info gives me pause.

In regards to your autopilot observation, maybe you should read up on the 747 out of SFO some years ago where an engine failed and the crew failed to notice. The autopilot held until it couldn't, then kicked off. The a/c did a snap roll and headed for the ocean. The crew pulled out, but the plane was seriously damaged.

Btw, fixing autopilots is what dravnx does :laughing

This is not a slam on dravnx, but a General Aviation autopilot in a Cirrus or Baron is no where near comparable in complexity to an autopilot in any modern airliner. There so many systems talking to each other in a modern jet. And it's hardly anecdotal. Is it speculation based on experience? Yeah, I'll give you that much.

I am aware of the incident you are speaking of (I think). That was a China Airlines flight, enroute to the US. That engine had flamed out multiple times in previous flights (part of the accident chain), flamed out on that flight (another link), they asked for a descent, but didn't (another link). The FE tried to restart the engine, while the captain let the autopilot continue to fly (against SOP and checklists, another link) but failed to close the bleeds because he didn't properly run the checklist (another link) and airspeed started to decay because the CA wasn't paying attention, and maintained altitude without enough power available to (another link). When the autopilot finally got to it's roll deflection limit, it said "fuck you, you take over" and disconnected (exactly what it designed to do). Because the aircraft was in such an unstable state with such a high asymmetric thrust (the autopilot on that model 747 won't apply rudder to keep it flying straight) it started to roll over and descend into the clouds because it was in such a bad side slip (which coupled with a stall, especially in a swept wing jet can cause a snap roll, but that's not what this thing did). When the captain finally decided to take over, they were in the clouds. He looked up, saw the excessive bank and excessive slip, and thought that his instruments had also failed (another link), and failed to cross check three separate attitude instruments that were all giving them the same information, (yet another link). They then became spatially disoriented. It wasn't until they broke out of the clouds that they were able to regain control. That crew and passengers are all lucky to be alive, and the only reason they are is because the 747 is built like a tank. Any airplane that can she'd that many parts and continue to fly is a damn well built airplane.

They should have never accepted that airplane. Are you really about to cross the Pacific in an airplane that has had multiple engine failures, and no one knows why? Then, when it happens, not follow the proper procedure? Remember when I said that training in some countries is piss poor at best? Here's one example. There were so many links in that chain.... their lucky that they had 11,000 feet to work with when they broke out of the clouds.

That's not anecdotal. That's factual. That's what's taught to us in training here in the US. We have retired instructors at my airline that came back from overseas that were brought over there to try and clean up their training, and it's helped, but it hasn't fixed the problem completely.

It's day four. I've got three legs today, just shy of 9hrs of flying to do, and I gotta wash the swamp out of my ass, brush the fuzz off my teeth, and break a beer bottle so I've got something to shave with. This post may sound like I'm being a dick, but that's not my intent, so please don't take it that way.
 
Haven't read the thread at all, but I'll say I flew Southwest this past weekend to SC, and had to have a layover both ways. I ended up on the 737 Max during 3 of the 4 legs. It felt perfectly safe. I knew each time and was anxious for the first few minutes of the flight. The last pilot from Midway to here seemed to make light of it and came on saying he was going to fly it like he stole it. It took the edge off.


I feel like at this point they have instructed the pilots to look for anomalies and takeover if something goes wrong. I doubt there will be more incidents but I guess caution is better than crashes

Let's deconstruct that. The 737 Max didn't feel perfectly safe. Planes don't have feelings. Only humans have feelings. So you felt perfectly safe. Great!

Not how we come to conclusions on safety, however.
 
Let's deconstruct that. The 737 Max didn't feel perfectly safe. Planes don't have feelings. Only humans have feelings. So you felt perfectly safe. Great!

Not how we come to conclusions on safety, however.
Agreed. It's like somebody who has been lane sharing for a week, didn't have any close calls so they think they can safely go faster.
 
This is not a slam on dravnx, but a General Aviation autopilot in a Cirrus or Baron is no where near comparable in complexity to an autopilot in any modern airliner. There so many systems talking to each other in a modern jet. And it's hardly anecdotal. Is it speculation based on experience? Yeah, I'll give you that much.

I am aware of the incident you are speaking of (I think). That was a China Airlines flight, enroute to the US. That engine had flamed out multiple times in previous flights (part of the accident chain), flamed out on that flight (another link), they asked for a descent, but didn't (another link). The FE tried to restart the engine, while the captain let the autopilot continue to fly (against SOP and checklists, another link) but failed to close the bleeds because he didn't properly run the checklist (another link) and airspeed started to decay because the CA wasn't paying attention, and maintained altitude without enough power available to (another link). When the autopilot finally got to it's roll deflection limit, it said "fuck you, you take over" and disconnected (exactly what it designed to do). Because the aircraft was in such an unstable state with such a high asymmetric thrust (the autopilot on that model 747 won't apply rudder to keep it flying straight) it started to roll over and descend into the clouds because it was in such a bad side slip (which coupled with a stall, especially in a swept wing jet can cause a snap roll, but that's not what this thing did). When the captain finally decided to take over, they were in the clouds. He looked up, saw the excessive bank and excessive slip, and thought that his instruments had also failed (another link), and failed to cross check three separate attitude instruments that were all giving them the same information, (yet another link). They then became spatially disoriented. It wasn't until they broke out of the clouds that they were able to regain control. That crew and passengers are all lucky to be alive, and the only reason they are is because the 747 is built like a tank. Any airplane that can she'd that many parts and continue to fly is a damn well built airplane.

They should have never accepted that airplane. Are you really about to cross the Pacific in an airplane that has had multiple engine failures, and no one knows why? Then, when it happens, not follow the proper procedure? Remember when I said that training in some countries is piss poor at best? Here's one example. There were so many links in that chain.... their lucky that they had 11,000 feet to work with when they broke out of the clouds.

That's not anecdotal. That's factual. That's what's taught to us in training here in the US. We have retired instructors at my airline that came back from overseas that were brought over there to try and clean up their training, and it's helped, but it hasn't fixed the problem completely.

It's day four. I've got three legs today, just shy of 9hrs of flying to do, and I gotta wash the swamp out of my ass, brush the fuzz off my teeth, and break a beer bottle so I've got something to shave with. This post may sound like I'm being a dick, but that's not my intent, so please don't take it that way.

:hail


We have created a world where we trust machines way too much. Humans are still needed to process info and make quick decisions. Fly the plane! None of that read as dickish to me.
 
And now reports that the co-Pilot? had about 200 hours of flight time? Also reports of the air to ground communication indicating one of the two pilots sounded panicky. Before you heap on, anyone who has listened to some of the recordings from flight voice recorders will seem in awe at how calm the pilots sound even in the face of certain disaster. Panic is often the sign of a lack of training.

---------------------------------------------------------

In the face of all of this, we are rushing headlong to putting people who can barely start a car into vehicles equipped with so called "auto-drive" and hoping Tesla, Google, Apple and other tech companies can get it right with each one of them having their own way of doing things and thinking their way is the best way. Some coders or software gurus no doubt said they thought of everything that could happen, right before the unthinkable too place.

Whatabuoitism? Not really, the same mindset that sends planes up that might be deficient in design or with ill-conceived control software and/or insufficient training is the same mindset that will turn someone who has a learner permit loose on the public because mommy and daddy could afford to buy them a 2 ton SUV with autodrive so they can get to school. The "adult" sitting next to them as "co-pilot" probably isn't any better trained.

There is a fundamental flaw somewhere that allows this stuff to happen.
 
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And now reports that the co-Pilot? had about 200 hours of flight time? Also reports of the air to ground communication indicating one of the two pilots sounded panicky. Before you heap on, anyone who has listened to some of the recordings from flight voice recorders will seem in awe at how calm the pilots sound even in the face of certain disaster. Panic is often the sign of a lack of training.

---------------------------------------------------------

In the face of all of this, we are rushing headlong to putting people who can barely start a car into vehicles equipped with so called "auto-drive" and hoping Tesla, Google, Apple and other tech companies can get it right with each one of them having their own way of doing things and thinking their way is the best way. Some coders or software gurus no doubt said they thought of everything that could happen, right before the unthinkable too place.

Whatabuoitism? Not really, the same mindset that sends planes up that might be deficient in design or with ill-conceived control software and/or insufficient training is the same mindset that will turn someone who has a learner permit loose on the public because mommy and daddy could afford to buy them a 2 ton SUV with autodrive so they can get to school. The "adult" sitting next to them as "co-pilot" probably isn't any better trained.

There is a fundamental flaw somewhere that allows this stuff to happen.


This is why I tell my exwife to keep the kids away from the TV if something like this ever happens to me.
 
I agree with you. See my Glock analogy. If cops keep shooting themselves in the leg, it's cheaper to buy a Beretta.

Your analogy is skewed in that even if officers have a gun with a safety, they carry it with the safety off. At last that was my experience.
 
This is why I tell my exwife to keep the kids away from the TV if something like this ever happens to me.

For a reason, I doubt your voice would be one of panic but instead calm, professional dedication working to prevent disaster. Then again, that would likely prevent the shit from happening in the first place.

Even so, you might have shit your drawers but everyone else's butt will smell like roses thinking it was just some turbulence.:thumbup
 
For a reason, I doubt your voice would be one of panic but instead calm, professional dedication working to prevent disaster. Then again, that would likely prevent the shit from happening in the first place.

Even so, you might have shit your drawers but everyone else's butt will smell like roses thinking it was just some turbulence.:thumbup

In a situation like that, I couldn't tell you. I haven't been that close before, and hope I never am. I have had two moments where I had to call crew scheduling afterwards and tell them "Yeah nah. That was enough fun for today" though. You don't realize how full of adrenaline you are until after it's all over and you're shut down at the gate, when the calls to the union and the cheif pilot start.
 
Your analogy is skewed in that even if officers have a gun with a safety, they carry it with the safety off. At last that was my experience.

Yeah.

It's not about the external safety. I've carried a Smith & Wesson and would keep the external safety off. I also carried a Sig that had a decocking lever, but no external safety. For the vast majority of my career, I've carried a Glock.

The Glock has a passive external safety right on the trigger. With the Glock, it has to do with the lack of a double action first trigger pull like other semi-autos have, combined with poor trigger finger discipline. Keeping one's finger off the trigger until ready to shoot is one of the most basic safety protocols there is, and that applies to any firearm. Violating this very basic and universal rule just might be a little less forgiving with a Glock, as compared to other semi-autos, as other semi-autos are designed with double action/single action trigger pull, and the Glock has about a 1 1/2 action trigger pull all the time.
 
Yeah.

It's not about the external safety. I've carried a Smith & Wesson and would keep the external safety off. I also carried a Sig that had a decocking lever, but no external safety. For the vast majority of my career, I've carried a Glock.

The Glock has a passive external safety right on the trigger. With the Glock, it has to do with the lack of a double action first trigger pull like other semi-autos have, combined with poor trigger finger discipline. Keeping one's finger off the trigger until ready to shoot is one of the most basic safety protocols there is, and that applies to any firearm. Violating this very basic and universal rule just might be a little less forgiving with a Glock, as compared to other semi-autos, as other semi-autos are designed with double action/single action trigger pull, and the Glock has about a 1 1/2 action trigger pull all the time.

The comparisons between the Glock and Beretta remind me of the typical arguments about why some people blame guns instead of killers when they look for solutions to murders.

Regardless of which handgun it is, the brain is the ultimate safety for it controls the trigger finger. Remove the brain part and no gun is safe regardless of who makes it or how it is made. An idiot will manage to hurt themselves with an unloaded gun.
 
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...in-cockpit-saved-a-737-max-that-later-crashed

As the Lion Air crew fought to control their diving Boeing Co. 737 Max 8, they got help from an unexpected source: an off-duty pilot who happened to be riding in the cockpit.

That extra pilot, who was seated in the cockpit jumpseat, correctly diagnosed the problem and told the crew how to disable a malfunctioning flight-control system and save the plane, according to two people familiar with Indonesia’s investigation.

The next day, under command of a different crew facing what investigators said was an identical malfunction, the jetliner crashed into the Java Sea killing all 189 aboard.
 
Was that MCAS "safety feature" the result of a 737 crash caused by a stall?

Was that a common problem or did they just come up with a fallible "solution" to a problem that really does not exist?
 
Was that MCAS "safety feature" the result of a 737 crash caused by a stall?

Was that a common problem or did they just come up with a fallible "solution" to a problem that really does not exist?
2. Why did Boeing add the MCAS to the plane?

Boeing designed the 737 Max to deliver a 14 percent fuel-savings to compete with the A320neo from the company’s European rival, Airbus SE. The use of new, bigger engines required Boeing’s designers to mount the units farther forward on the wings in order to give them proper ground clearance when taking off or landing. That changed the flying characteristics in a way that the engineers thought required the additional system to prevent stalls. Boeing, which promoted the plane as similar enough to past 737 models that pilots wouldn’t need extra training, said the new feature wasn’t significant enough to be highlighted in the plane’s manuals or pilot training.
Source
Seems that they created a system to overcome a shortcoming that could have led to an unfortunate situation and their solution resulted in a far worse situation.
 
Seems that they created a system to overcome a shortcoming that could have led to an unfortunate situation and their solution resulted in a far worse situation.

They created a system to overcome the short comings of poor training in other parts of the world. We are taught to stall our airplanes in training. They are not. Learning how to stall teaches one also how not to stall. These guys are taught automation management (often mismanagement), and no stick and rudder.

Remember what I was saying a few pages back about "trim runaway"? The guy sitting on the jumpseat recognized it. He probably remembered the bulletin.
 
When I was learning how to fly, I remember going out to Castle Airport several times and seeing all the third world pilots buzzing around, on their way to becoming commercial pilots. Couldn't understand a damn thing they were saying on the radio, and sometimes they sounded really confused. The word from everyone was all these pilots were trying to jam through training ASAP so they can return home and take prestigious airline jobs.

It made me queasy enough to want to avoid, if at all possible, flights on third world airlines in growth markets.
 
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