How will electronics change how bikes are ridden?

[Holeshot]

The new for 2015, Yamaha R1 has an electronics package second to none: traction control, lift control, bank angle sensors, braking sensors, slide control, etc (IMU). It's so electronic, the bike corrects the mistakes of the rider. With the R1-M, the CCU Data recorder has made it possible to see where the rider's requests for throttle, etc doesn't match with what the bike gives to the rider. The consistent comment on the new R1 for a traditional rider: If you wait to apply throttle where you used to, it's too late. Wire the throttle open and let the bike figure it out. On a 170hp motorcycle (rear wheel) off the floor. What?

So, my discussion point it: what does this do for future riding? Make is less exciting? Make it safer? (yes). Make it so 600's are superfluous? Make it so the disparity between talent levels is greatly reduced (like cars are now)? How does rider education change? Why bother talking about taking away lean angle as they add throttle if the bike is supposed to manage this all for the rider?

 

[GAJ]

Can't stop progress I guess, but hopefully all this stuff has an "off" switch.

Read an article recently where most MotoGP riders think that without traction control there would be far more crashes as they have 270hp at the rear wheel. They think it should stay.

http://www.cycleworld.com/2015/08/14/the-motogp-question-traction-control/

Most BARFers who have new "techno" laden bikes seem to like the electronics.

All of them seem to be experienced riders experiencing the full electronic package for the first time.

I'm not rushing out to replace either of my bikes because they lack electronics though.

 

[Hooli]

You're opening a can of worms Berto.

#straightbarsmatter

 

[bikeama]

On the street most riders will not have the electronics kick in. On the track yes, but the street is not the track. I have had ABS come on a few times, saved my ass at least once. Have only had the TC come on one time light dew on Mt Hamilton, sure it saved my ass.

 

[redbull]

The track is where on the fly mapping changes and traction electronics matter really and on the street I just don't see riders pushing the limits enough to ever rely on them. A bike pushing 250hp+ at the rear is not being ridden on Highway 9. On the track that kind of power cannot be managed well unless you either rode a 500cc 2-smoke and know how to fly by wire, or you rely very much on traction control and become a slave to it. Ask Pedrosa about when Marquez lightly kissed him and cut his rear wheel sensor at Aragon in 2013. He thought he had TC in the turn:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNI9DOoaXTA

 

[louemc]

Glad this track vs street issue is at the head of this thread....

It's the question and has to be kept separate.

The street rider better have the mind set, to know how to rely on themselves.

 

[Zerox]

So, my discussion point it: what does this do for future riding? Make is less exciting? Make it safer? (yes). Make it so 600's are superfluous? Make it so the disparity between talent levels is greatly reduced (like cars are now)? How does rider education change? Why bother talking about taking away lean angle as they add throttle if the bike is supposed to manage this all for the rider?

Going faster, safer is definitely MORE exciting. Future riding looks very bright, I love these techno advances.

Hey 600's will never be superfluous, a 600 is far lighter, with less crankshaft weight inertia, and no electronics can hide the extra weight and extra effort required to muscle around a 1000 at speed.

Cars are different, they don't fall over when you stop. Electronics can help with the throttle and brake application for sure, but the disparity between talent levels will always be there. With better electronics, many riders that may have been injured or killed in the past will now be alive in one piece. So they are around to work on their talent level to reduce the aforementioned disparity. This is good, very good.

Rider awareness of what their bike can do is perhaps the biggest change, lots of stuff to learn with all the various electronics and their myriad of adjustments. "Why is the clock blinking '12:00' like my old VCR?"

Don't see why would the basics of rider education change, though. You still gotta look where you are going, countersteering, don't tense up, body position, etc. MotoGP is much more technical with more electronics than this new R1 and incredible Aprilia, and how do those guys train? On little bikes, sliding around in the dirt, same as Kenny Roberts did 40 years ago.

Next step is full DCT for sportbikes, your grandad's motorcycle gearbox is inefficient, all these humans messing up the clutch and the shifting...soon the computer will do it all for you, to a much higher level than these current DCT tourey bikes have reached. Bring it!

 

[Holeshot]

Rick, Redbull says it all actually when he references Marquez cutting Pedrosa's rear wheel speed sensor. What happens when riders rely too much on electronics?

And what's good for the track is good for the street. TC isn't just TC anymore:

Rider Adaptive Technology (which for some reason wasn't given the acronym RAT) involves pairing Yamaha's Inertial Measurement Unit (IMU) with a host of electronic rider aides. The IMU measures six axes of movement and includes both a gyro sensor and an accelerometer to measure position and acceleration in all three directions: fore-aft, up-down, and left-right.
The IMU system is part of what helps tell electronic rider aids what to do. The 10-setting Traction Control System (TCS) calculates and manages the speed differential between the front and rear wheel while taking lean angle into account.

The four-setting Slide Control System (SCS) is taken directly from the M1 MotoGP bike and adjusts engine power if a slide is detected.

The four-setting Lift Control System (LIF) measures the front-to-rear pitching rate and helps keep the front end down under hard acceleration.

Three-setting Launch Control System (LCS) limits the engine to 10,000 rpm while the bike is at standstill, even with the throttle wide open, and makes sure the engine output is at optimum levels in conjunction with the TCS and LIF systems.

Finally, the three-setting Quick Shift System (QSS) detects movement in the shifter to briefly cut engine output for upshifts without the rider having to use the clutch or close the throttle.
All of these systems are how you keep from exploding into flames. Yes, I know that was a lot, and no, we're not done yet.

The ABS system on the new R1 now includes a Unified Braking System (UBS), which lightly activates the rear brake when the front brake is applied harshly. Yamaha claims the UBS system works with information from the Inertial Measurement Unit to help dictate how much rear brake is applied, based on the lean angle and available traction.

Sam Verdirico said when he lost the front going into T10 (Thill) in practice, before he could even let the lever out a little bit to transfer weight off the front, the bike did it all on its own..and miraculously the bike regained front end traction. He was blown away...Think about how far things have come in the last two or three years alone.

I hear Kawi has a similar package of electronics for 2016.

 

[clutchslip]

Glad this track vs street issue is at the head of this thread....

It's the question and has to be kept separate.

The street rider better have the mind set, to know how to rely on themselves.

First, I take exception to the "second to none" statement. Only because there are track electronics and street electronics and something in-between. What is best for Holeshot may not be best for newbie dip-wad that bought a liter toy to learn how to trail brake.

And I completely disagree with louemc's statement. The best place for electronics is on the street. The less experience that you have and the more varied the conditions, the more you "need" them. (No one needs any of it. It's just how we behave these days, so we think we need this stuff).

My S1000RR is just amazing on the street. Amazing. I can smooth out the highway like a tourer, while I ride, and still wail around the ape hanger splitting or stay with the R6 in the tight twisties. Quite a nice STREET bike. But, it doesn't change anything with MY riding. I never engage traction control, and ABS is set to the minimum, with a slight rear wheel link. My 4&1/2 cents.

 

[Holeshot]

Agree completely Scotland, on electronics on the street being likely more in need than on the track (for safety)...

 

[Marcoose]

Funny, today I was wondering when the countersteering assist will be introduced.

Sure it's great to have all these electronics making riding safer and the bikes more reliable, but it's not like grandpa didn't have lots of fun on his "deux temps" and "freins tambour", especially considering motorcycling in the US is 90% hobby.

 

[UDRider]

On the street most riders will not have the electronics kick in. On the track yes, but the street is not the track. I have had ABS come on a few times, saved my ass at least once. Have only had the TC come on one time light dew on Mt Hamilton, sure it saved my ass.

Depends on TC actually. On my new bike I had to tone it down because it was coming on too soo. I was not going wack wack the throttle either. The same for ABS. Now they are at lvl 2 and I was able to trigger them only when I tried to do it on purpose.

 

[UDRider]

One thing that worries me is the failure mode. If some sensor fails, will there be an indication? Some people will get used to relying on it, and when failure occurs if it doesn't show up on panel it can lead to a crash.

 

[Falsus Nomen]

What happens to bikes when autonomous cars happen. And in 20 years when they are mandated. Much more significant to bikes overall.

 

[Burning1]

One thing that worries me is the failure mode. If some sensor fails, will there be an indication? Some people will get used to relying on it, and when failure occurs if it doesn't show up on panel it can lead to a crash.

Most of the electronic aids I've seen self-calibrate. The ECU will notice abnormal data and will enter a limp-mode.

"I've got data from the steering angle, but the bank angle sensor hasn't registered anything but 5 degrees. Might be faulty. Throw a code."

 

[NoobCorpse]

And I completely disagree with louemc's statement. The best place for electronics is on the street. The less experience that you have and the more varied the conditions, the more you "need" them. (No one needs any of it. It's just how we behave these days, so we think we need this stuff).

I'm glad to read that it's not just me pointing this out - street riders should have a mindset to rely on themselves to watch for danger and be 100% vigilant, and electronic aids that may help shorten stopping distance (ABS does this, lou), keep the bike upright / keep traction on wet or slick surfaces (ABS does this lou) and keep the rear wheelspin under control when necessary (traction control does this lou) gives a street rider the maximum advantage to help you stay upright and possibly out of harm's way. Why you wouldn't want every advantage in street riding situations is beyond me, but hey, some people love ice skating uphill. Obviously skilled braking techniques and experience is another advantage, but ABS is usually good for an "oh shit" situation, where skill only goes so far.


Eagerly awaiting the "those that know are in the know" response.

 

[jiffy]

Traction control systems will be looked at in the future as one of those normal advances in technology that only helps riders ride smoother and safer. It will be similar to writing a letter on a typewriter vs a computer, less major errors are made but small errors are still possible. It could open up riding to a greater mass of the public, think of how it could be implemented on large scooters or the more recent 3 wheeled machines.

 

[clutchslip]

......It could open up riding to a greater mass of the public, think of how it could be implemented on large scooters or the more recent 3 wheeled machines.

This is a nice point. If the industry spends some time marketing these new safety features, perhaps more people would ride. It's still easy for a newbie to panic and do the wrong thing, especially when it comes to leaning in corners. But, I am all for more people giving motorcycles a go. It's just a fast bicycle, right?

 

[redtail]

This is a nice point. If the industry spends some time marketing these new safety features, perhaps more people would ride.

Agreed, that is a good point.

Although an argument can be made that electronics make any rider better rider regardless of experience. While finesse will always be an asset and the decision of when and now much is up to every rider, technology is a safety net that reduces the likelihood that a small mistake or a rider focusing on a bad driver and misses a poor traction condition, doesn't turn that into a bigger mistake.

 

[ob1ventura]

More stuff I don't want that jacks up the price of the bike.
More stuff to possibly mal function.
More stuff to maintain.

Is it going to change the way a track rider is going to ride in order to take full advantage of the electronics and stay competitive?