I changed my tune on electronics

[kuksul08]

is there any TC or slide control on a production motorcycle that will allow a rider to be hamfisted at full lean? can a shitty rider go WOT any time and not crash? based on what ive seen, the answer is no. as such, i dont think that throttle rider aids such as TC, wheelie control, or slide control are in any way preventing someone from learning a reasonable amount of throttle control. will they be as good as the pro that can spin the tire at will out of every corner w/ no aids - of course not. but theyll prob still be better than the majority of auto drivers.

Yep - pretty much any bike with an IMU. That includes the BMW S1000/R1200 series, Ninja 1000, KTM 1290's, I'm sure the list goes on. Obviously we can't break the laws of physics so you can't go into a 20mph corner at 90 and expect to make it through, or hit a big patch of gravel and magically generate friction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHRWg91hv-M

 

[Rumbo Sur]

You don't need to ride like a maniac to reap the benefits of electronics. When well implemented, you won't even know they kicked in and you'll ride away looking and feeling like a total badass.

Here are some examples:
Lanesplitting in heavy traffic. Traffic is creeping along at 10mph, you're doing 25-30. Suddenly someone decides to switch lanes just 12 feet in front of you. There is a truck to your left and right, nowhere to go, but to slam on the brakes. But it's foggy, slightly damp, and you're right on the white paint of a lane divider. You grab a handful of brakes and hope for the best.

Riding in the hills. You come around a corner and in the shadows is a patch of gravel kicked out onto the road from a pot hole. You're leaned over doing 45, rolling on the gas for corner exit. Without traction control, the tire hits the gravel, spins up, and you highside. This depends on how quick revving the bike is - most modern free revving twins and i4's will go from 4 to 14k in an instant. With TC, it will notice that slip and keep the back end from sliding out.

I know this because I've had both of those happen. It really put me in my place and let me appreciate the technology. With enough miles, it's inevitable to encounter this stuff.

Both good examples of WHY I appreciate ABS ... especially rain riding at a good pace. The Mid corner loss of traction is a factor too ... but does not happen much on my 37 HP DR650 ... dual sports are nearly immune to mid corner gravel if not going too fast or on the gas or brakes too hard.

My Ducati a different deal, love the traction control and ABS. Previous 1050 Tiger too. I really learned to trust ABS on wet, slick roads. Really useful for me on that bike, which I never trusted that much overall. The ABS helped a lot.

I also agree that dirt bikes really develop street skills. Obvious, no?
Amazing how SLOW many road racers can be once out of their controlled "track" element environment.
Take them on beat up, gravel strewn, pot holed wet, muddy roads and watch what happens. On my DR650 ... I speed up!

No ABS on that DR650 ... but would love to have it ... but I'm not nervous without it either. You just adapt to each bike and situation ... hopefully!

 

[Schnellbandit]

I have bikes with and without ABS etc and ride within my skills for the conditions present. I all the time I've had ABS on some of my bikes, it's been used only once and it was while riding in a straight line, two up and just a little too much rear brake on a fog slicked road.

IMHO, some people start relying on tech aids and ride to limits they usually would not otherwise. None of the tech aids leave any room for error once they come on. Basically, you've overridden your skills and conditions and that tech aid is all you have left.

 

[NoobCorpse]

In my humble, limited riding experience, much of it on street with ABS/TC-equipped bikes, and humble, limited dirt-riding experience, I would agree 100% that dirt riding is great training for street situations for exploring the limits of traction, braking, etc, and helps overall confidence with a motorcycle moving around.

My experience with ABS and other electronic aids leads me to believe that ABS won't help you if you ride like a moron and magically bring you to a stop. What it WILL do is intervene when you probably need braking help the most, and not "cover up" bad riding - you'll still ride badly, you just won't eat shit.
IMHO, ABS / TC will save you in 'oh shit' moments where it'll keep the bike upright / moving, instead of giving you a 'teachable moment' injury. Like all things, each rider will take from it what they will.
Going from an ABS-equipped moto to one without, folks say they are more cautious - I'd argue the caution should exist at some level regardless of the presence of electronic aids.

What the "old timers" and others who are adamant about 'I don't need electronics' should be asking is, 'how can I exploit this technology to work to my advantage with my already knowledgeable riding experience?' If it really hinders your riding experience ("hey I have to lock the rear wheel up and drift it to get the thing to turn the way I like!") then maybe don't buy a bike with ABS.

 

[NoobCorpse]

IMHO, some people start relying on tech aids and ride to limits they usually would not otherwise. None of the tech aids leave any room for error once they come on. Basically, you've overridden your skills and conditions and that tech aid is all you have left.

My experience on group rides and interacting with motorcyclists around the US and even in other countries has informed my opinion to believe that people will do this on motorcycles, regardless of relying on any electronic aids whatsoever. I've seen people on clapped out 15 year old literbikes with a huge wear stripe down the center of the rear tire going on the street at very questionable limits - forget TC/ABS, the rider was relying on his worn tires and unmaintained motorcycle functioning normally.

 

[Johndicezx9]

I've had my first bike with ABS (no TC, though) since mid-May, and I think it's great.

 

[stangmx13]

Yep - pretty much any bike with an IMU. That includes the BMW S1000/R1200 series, Ninja 1000, KTM 1290's, I'm sure the list goes on. Obviously we can't break the laws of physics so you can't go into a 20mph corner at 90 and expect to make it through, or hit a big patch of gravel and magically generate friction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHRWg91hv-M

so the answer is still no.

lets ignore gravel and even corner entry. can a squid doing 40mph w/ their knee down go WOT and not spin the tire? i havent found a YT video showing anything like that.

the video provided no information about the throttle side.

 

[07chuck]

CDI changed my life.

 

[kuksul08]

so the answer is still no.

lets ignore gravel and even corner entry. can a squid doing 40mph w/ their knee down go WOT and not spin the tire? i havent found a YT video showing anything like that.

the video provided no information about the throttle side.

I said "yep". It's even easier than the cornering ABS implementation. They simply retard the ignition timing and/or cut throttle.

I can go WFO on my hypermotard fully leaned over. I get a flashing light in my face and the bike doesn't go anywhere until it has enough grip.

We have the technology!

 

[Blankpage]

Is that because there are fewer wrecks (which I doubt), or because there are fewer injuries now from crashes?

You can walk away from a much higher speed crash in a modern car than you could in a fifty year old car. They didn't even have seat belts in all cars in 1967 yet.


If you're going to toss out statistics, how about a little bit of information to back it up...

Thanks Ralph

 

[Adler / Gawernator]

I've never had ABS and been ok, maybe it's luck, who knows for sure. Traction Control electronics are a godsend.

 

[Sharky]

I only ever really wanted ABS when riding in the rain or other slick conditions. As I don't have it, I tend to ride more carefully when those conditions are present. I would like to be able to see if I could be a hero on the track with traction control.

 

[clutchslip]

Is that because there are fewer wrecks (which I doubt), or because there are fewer injuries now from crashes?

You can walk away from a much higher speed crash in a modern car than you could in a fifty year old car. They didn't even have seat belts in all cars in 1967 yet.


If you're going to toss out statistics, how about a little bit of information to back it up...

Thank you. His "facts" don't seem to exist. 2015-brought-biggest-us-traffic-death-increase-50-years

Thanks Ralph

How does this relate? You claim that people drive the same, when I say they drive worse. With all the safety improvements, we still have a lot of accidents. People never signal anymore and drive too close all the time and are rather aggressive compared to when that questionable book was written. You seem to be making my point for me.

However, if you would like to start a thread where we can discuss his book, I am willing to dive in. I haven't had that argument in at least 20 years. For example: This guy said Mini-Coopers were unsafe, but the original Honda Civic was okay. Do you know how he came to this erroneous conclusion?

 

[ctwo]

moer deaths...

"Lower gas prices and and increased motor-vehicle mileage combined with risky activities like speeding and driving while texting is proving deadly for American drivers."

http://fortune.com/2017/02/15/traffic-deadliest-year/

 

[bpw]

Thank you. His "facts" don't seem to exist. 2015-brought-biggest-us-traffic-death-increase-50-years

Largest percentage increase, not most deaths per population or any other metric. If we had one death last year and it increased to 2 this year it would be a 100% increase. It's also the largest increase in 50 years since deaths have been going down so consitently that entire time with a small uptick in the 1970's. Doesn't take much to make the "largest increase in 50 years. That article also fails to correct for miles driven. It's a crap statistic that makes for an exiting headline but doesn't really mean much.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year

Driving was safer in 2015 than 2005 on a per mile basis. 2015 was a bit more dangerous than the years before, bit still safer than any year before 2008.


Driving is way,way safer now than in the past no matter how you measure it.

 

[Blankpage]

I only ever really wanted ABS when riding in the rain or other slick conditions. As I don't have it, I tend to ride more carefully when those conditions are present. I would like to be able to see if I could be a hero on the track with traction control.

But at what level? My bike has 10 levels of TC and ABS. I don't ride in the rain unless I happen to be caught in an unexpected small shower so I keep both on a low setting. Its embarrassing when your intent is to do a cool wheelie to impress the chicks but a light flashes on the dash immediately followed by the front wheel slamming back down. However I'm not for certain sure what's causing that. Doesn't happen in "race" mode.

Thank you. His "facts" don't seem to exist. 2015-brought-biggest-us-traffic-death-increase-50-years

How does this relate? You claim that people drive the same, when I say they drive worse. With all the safety improvements, we still have a lot of accidents. People never signal anymore and drive too close all the time and are rather aggressive compared to when that questionable book was written. You seem to be making my point for me.

However, if you would like to start a thread where we can discuss his book, I am willing to dive in. I haven't had that argument in at least 20 years. For example: This guy said Mini-Coopers were unsafe, but the original Honda Civic was okay. Do you know how he came to this erroneous conclusion?

Your mind is made up I not going to attempt to change it on a topic I'm not that passionate about. Cars are more survivable in a crash than they used to be. Ralph was a pioneer in making safety a large consideration in the design process. Perhaps you think differently. There isn't much he can do about peoples attitudes and habits, can't knock him for that.

 

[russ69]

I don't know, I'm still lukewarm on rider aids. I only have one bike that has it (GSX-S1000) and I'm thinking it's holding the bike back some when I wick it up. I was thinking about turning it off but doing that turns on the light on the instrument panel. I know when I'm at the drag strip, I have to turn it off so I can do a nice burnout and I wouldn't be turning it back on to make the run.

P.S. The technology is getting better so with a better user interface, I would probably use it more. I ain't got time to adjust it while I'm riding and I don't want a limiter on all the time. It should have a on/off on the fly button.

 

[fubar929]

I wonder if those of you denying the benefits have ever ridden a modern bike with electronics. They in no way make it more dangerous, and are mostly invisible. The older systems - yes. ABS would cause the bike to stand up and extend your braking distance over rough roads. Modern bikes with IMU's and cornering ABS are completely different.

I've owned a 2015 KTM Super Duke 1290 R, a 2016 Ducati Multistrada 1200S, and now a 2018 Ducati Supersport S. In straight-line, completely vertical braking on dry roads with nearly new tires all three of these bikes have one riding mode where ABS seems to be well-calibrated and multiple modes where it cuts in too aggressively and causes stopping distances to increase. From what I've seen, these bikes are the rule rather than the exception...

 

[Blankpage]

I don't know, I'm still lukewarm on rider aids. I only have one bike that has it (GSX-S1000) and I'm thinking it's holding the bike back some when I wick it up. I was thinking about turning it off but doing that turns on the light on the instrument panel. I know when I'm at the drag strip, I have to turn it off so I can do a nice burnout and I wouldn't be turning it back on to make the run.

P.S. The technology is getting better so with a better user interface, I would probably use it more. I ain't got time to adjust it while I'm riding and I don't want a limiter on all the time. It should have a on/off on the fly button.

I don't know about the Suzuki settings but is there the option of setting your own custom mode where you can set TC to off. That's an option with my bike to have something besides the 3 standard defaults.

Ive spunout twice years ago and dropped my bike on cold tires at night. I suppose TC would have saved the day in each event but its fun sometimes to spin up the rear and get a little sideways in 1st. I'm not adventurous enough to attempt that in 2nd or above.
But maybe TC is best left active during the cold riding season. I have only two months experience with such a bike but I like having the option of using it or not.

 

[Jalopyshoppe]

I spend time on so many bikes, and I'm not sold on the electronic overlords completely. I've had them "assist" and I've utilized them to make myself look like a hero. When lap times aren't on the line, and order of the day is pushing myself I tend to enjoy the unaided machines.
There are situations that they're useful, but nothing can replace being observant and skilled.