Is college a scam or worthwhile?

[GAJ]

I'll join the chorus of go to a "almost free" in California for you first two years because if you wash out, costs you not that much other than time and you won't have any student loan debt to speak of.

If you do well in JC continue on.

But for many young folks that aren't enamored with the idea of "more school" in the standard sense, the need for trades people, mechanics, nurses etc. is huge and likely that is a better route for many.

So not a scam unless you fall for the idea of having an impressive school name to share at parties.

My Dad paid for my undergrad a million years ago at University of Miami in Florida and I almost washed out; 1.614 GPA at end of year one.

Ended up with a 3.2 which was a slog and paid for my night school MBA with a loan at Florida International University which was far more rigorous even back then when folks thought it was a phantom school.

 

[Kornholio]

High schools used to have a "practical math" course back when I was in school that I'm sure is gone now. It taught things like balance a checkbook and understanding basic business math. I never learned anything in college that was as relevant as what I learned in that math class I took back in the 90s. It was mandatory for graduation too.

I don't feel like understanding how radio frequencies work or how your iPhone operates is mandatory for being a productive member of society, though. Critical thinking is certainly important, but that should be taught long before you reach the post-secondary education level.

 

[Kornholio]

But for many young folks that aren't enamored with the idea of "more school" in the standard sense, the need for trades people, mechanics, nurses etc. is huge and likely that is a better route for many.

FWIW, when I was still a maintenance manager, I preferred NOT to hire people that attended the likes of UTI or Wyotech as those schools did more to fill your head full of bullshit than realistically practical skills. Almost every tech I hired right out of those types of schools came to us with $40,000 in debt to Snap-On which means they're demanding top-tech pay in order to pay off their debts and an attitude of superiority that they couldn't back up in actual skills. Also, Snap-On is a fucking racket if you ask me...you DO NOT need Snap-On tools fresh out of school and you certainly don't need one of their overpriced boxes. I preferred the guy that apprenticed or went through one of the local college diesel programs. The results were almost always better with those folks.

As for nursing, Kelly's been a nurse for over 30 years and has told me repeatedly that you basically cannot get your foot in the door anymore without a BSN which means you're spending 4+ years in college to get into that field regardless. The burnout in that field is also huge too with most leaving within 5-7 years.

 

[GAJ]

As for nursing, Kelly's been a nurse for over 30 years and has told me repeatedly that you basically cannot get your foot in the door anymore without a BSN which means you're spending 4+ years in college to get into that field regardless. The burnout in that field is also huge too with most leaving within 5-7 years.

This seemed like a good way to get into the field.

https://www.pressdemocrat.com/artic...in-sonoma-county-targets-crucial-health-care/

 

[cheez]

High schools used to have a "practical math" course back when I was in school that I'm sure is gone now. It taught things like balance a checkbook and understanding basic business math. I never learned anything in college that was as relevant as what I learned in that math class I took back in the 90s. It was mandatory for graduation too.

I don't feel like understanding how radio frequencies work or how your iPhone operates is mandatory for being a productive member of society, though. Critical thinking is certainly important, but that should be taught long before you reach the post-secondary education level.

I disagree.

Understanding how things work- be it technology (the example I chose), medicine, politics, economics, etc.- is necessary if one wants to advance and thrive in the modern world. I use the education I got at university every day.

I also don't have a degree, as I dropped out to pursue my career.

Critical reasoning is no longer taught in primary schools. It requires challenging too many deeply held beliefs.

I'm not saying one can't survive in the modern world without that understanding- but how is one going to create the next thing- to advance our society- without that understanding?

Are we advocating stagnation and regression for our society, or progress and advancement?

 

[Blankpage]

High schools used to have a "practical math" course back when I was in school that I'm sure is gone now. It taught things like balance a checkbook and understanding basic business math. I never learned anything in college that was as relevant as what I learned in that math class I took back in the 90s. It was mandatory for graduation too.

You don’t think learning rate of change for surface area of an ice cube as it melts would have practical use in everyday life?

 

[Sharxfan]

As for nursing, Kelly's been a nurse for over 30 years and has told me repeatedly that you basically cannot get your foot in the door anymore without a BSN which means you're spending 4+ years in college to get into that field regardless. The burnout in that field is also huge too with most leaving within 5-7 years.

Hmm here you can do CNA and get a $50k a year job RNs here are about $75k and up with no requirement for BSN you can get your foot in the door with an associates degree and work your way up.

 

[Kornholio]

This seemed like a good way to get into the field.

https://www.pressdemocrat.com/artic...in-sonoma-county-targets-crucial-health-care/

Paywall article, but I wasn't talking about a CNA role as that's not an RN. You'd still have to complete the full BSN program in order to be an RN at pretty much any major/mainstream hospital. Certainly if you want to work at the ones that pay the best.

I disagree.

Understanding how things work- be it technology (the example I chose), medicine, politics, economics, etc.- is necessary if one wants to advance and thrive in the modern world. I use the education I got at university every day.

I also don't have a degree, as I dropped out to pursue my career.

Critical reasoning is no longer taught in primary schools. It requires challenging too many deeply held beliefs.

I'm not saying one can't survive in the modern world without that understanding- but how is one going to create the next thing- to advance our society- without that understanding?

Are we advocating stagnation and regression for our society, or progress and advancement?

I have no idea how the coding works in my iPhone and I don't feel like that's holding me back whatsoever. Being up on current events also takes absolutely no schooling whatsoever. it just takes paying attention which many folks these days, old and young, no longer want to do.

You don’t think learning rate of change for surface area of an ice cube as it melts would have practical use in everyday life?

I'm assuming you're joking...but no, I do not.

Hmm here you can do CNA and get a $50k a year job RNs here are about $75k and up with no requirement for BSN you can get your foot in the door with an associates degree and work your way up.

I have no idea where you're located, but no CNAs are getting $50K a year in our area. Not even close. RN's are only at $25/hour fresh out of school and even then, a BSN requirement is on literally every job posting I've ever seen for any RN anywhere in the country. Like I said before, Kelly has been in the field for over 30 years and she'll be the first one to tell you that no major hospital is hiring anyone for an RN role without a BSN if they have no experience as an RN...which you can't get into anymore without said BSN. The days of ASNs being enough are long gone.

 

[GAJ]

Paywall article, but I wasn't talking about a CNA role as that's not an RN. You'd still have to complete the full BSN program in order to be an RN at pretty much any major/mainstream hospital. Certainly if you want to work at the ones that pay the best.

Sonoma County.

On Tuesday, Rojas was among 12 people who graduated in the inaugural class of the free program, receiving not only a certificate of completion but also a certificate of recognition from California Senate President Mike McGuire.

The state-funded initiative, called Healthcare Career Pathway, is aimed at addressing significant staffing shortages among nursing assistants at long-term care facilities, one of the most in-demand health care fields.

That kind of investment is a heavy lift in Sonoma County, where rent and the overall high cost of living can soak up available income. The average salary for a certified nursing assistant in Sonoma County is about $46,000, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

 

[Eldritch]

I've been hearing more opinions lately saying going to college is a scam and isn't as necessary as it used to be.
The argument for this is that 55% of college grads don't work in the field of their major. There are a lot of Communications majors working at Starbucks for example.
Unless you're going to be a doctor, engineer, pharmacist, attorney, etc. many college degrees don't prepare the grad for anything in the workforce.
The burden of student loans hangs on for decades after graduation.
There are 11+ million jobs in the US that pay over $80,000/year and don't need a degree. Not sure how many openings there are but you get the point.

I'm a college grad and feel my college education made me mentally stronger than I would have been without it. And I have that piece of paper that proves to me and to all who see it that I accomplished something at a young age, I took on a 4 year course of study and succeeded.
I don't feel I wasted my time at all. At 18 who knows what they want to be in life anyway? College provides a place and time where you can figure yourself out and mature.
To me it was worthwhile.

Thoughts?

Well, I would say it is a scam if you use it for some hopes and dreams bullshit.

College should be reviewed as your Jobs Training program.

In the modern American Economy there are only 3 paths to being financially successful without huge risk.

1) Join the exploitative corruption of high paid Trade Unions at an early (college) age. This can be hard to get into, because as with any system based on Government Graft and Corruption, you kind of need to be connected to get in easily. Plumbers, Electricians, Elevator Techs, top dollar trades that have exclusive deal arrangements with Government Money to destroy fair competition will make sure you will do just fine.

2) Join the Military. This is honestly more of kind of a holding pattern as a career in the military doesn't pay very well typically, but the fringe benefits of doing service are massive in the USA. It can pave the way to option 3 with a lot of free money to cover those costs and a lifetime of Healthcare is a big fucking deal for your long term finances even if the care availability isn't necessarily great wherever you decide to settle after you leave the service. One also should not understate the value of life experience that comes from the travel involved in being military for young people. The job training you can get there is also wildly valuable if you can work it out.

If you can get the Navy to teach you how to weld underwater, when you get out you can just laugh and roll around in all your piles of money until your job destroys your body, lol. (Underwater Welding is rough)

3) College plan with specific goals recognizing both the need for your services and the cash value of your labor after graduation. Perform a CBA (Cost Benefit Analysis) while you make your plan. Should you do your first few years to knock out Academics at a transferable Community College? Probably.

What is the demand for your position? What are the projections for future demand? What has the typical salary looked like over the last decade? If you want to do medical services for old farts, the massive ongoing physical collapse of the Boomers, who have plundered all of the money out of the US economy for themselves, will be your goldmine. Geriatric Medicine will be an industry of explosive growth over the next 20 years.

Robotics, Sustainable Energy Technology, Genetics, these industries are all in early stages of massive gold rush scenarios globally and they are too knowledge dependent to be practical to practice in reliably without going to College for it in some way.

Even the old days of being able to work in Software by being l337 seems to have gone by the wayside and most newer generation of workers trying to get into the industry are coming armed with college degrees to make them more competitive in the hiring process.

It seems to me the old days of show up and hustle and you will have a good life are mostly gone in the US without some lucky exceptions. The globalization of economics have just made it too competitive, so the clear path to success is more narrow, but the advantage of the digital age is, so much more information is out there to help you make a plan, and College is one of them, if you plan it correctly.

 

[Kornholio]

2) Join the Military. This is honestly more of kind of a holding pattern as a career in the military doesn't pay very well typically...

Typically? More like it doesn't at all assuming we're talking about being enlisted versus being an officer. However, if you're officer, you've already got the degree anyway or you wouldn't be there. Of course there are warrant officers which is a different thing altogether but a topic better discussed elsewhere.

The thing is, what most don't take into consideration (but you did point out) is that you're not paying for your food, healthcare or housing, so the small amount of money you actually do make is easily saved...unless you're an idiot and go out and buy a V6 Challenger at 30% interest.

Also, I wouldn't tout having VA healthcare (or even worse, TRICARE assuming you're a retiree) coverage as a benefit. The VA's healthcare system is severely broken and TRICARE is an absolute joke.

One also should not understate the value of life experience that comes from the travel involved in being military for young people. The job training you can get there is also wildly valuable if you can work it out.

Travel is a huge perk of serving...but you have to pick the right branch and the right MOS to take full advantage of it and certainly which MOS you pick can make or kill your chances of having a job lined up when you get out.

If you can get the Navy to teach you how to weld underwater, when you get out you can just laugh and roll around in all your piles of money until your job destroys your body, lol. (Underwater Welding is rough).

FYI...the Army does diving, underwater salvage and welding too. Probably one of the best kept secret careers we offer. We also have more boats than the Navy does.

 

[msethhunter]

College is 100% necessary depending on what you plan on doing. For 90% of jobs out there, it isn’t. Also, people must start understanding that you are not likely to step into a six figure job right out of college. You may end up working at a Starbucks right after school. So, keep trying. Fight for what you’ve worked for, and accept that you’re probably going to have to start at the bottom and work your way up. There’s a lot that works towards experience, and the biggest raise you’ll ever negotiate is the one you negotiate when you’re hired.

My first year flying, I made about $35k, almost 20 years ago. I worked my way up to about $65k, then took a HUGE pay cut to move into the airlines. For my first nearly 10 years at the airlines, I couldn’t even break into six figures. Add another 5 years on that, and now I’m finally “comfortable”. As long as I don’t go on a spending spree, my bills are paid. It took me nearly two decades, and it was worth it. Forward progress is forward progress, even if it comes with sacrifice.

 

[byke]

I for one never said anything about it being a scam. There are indeed things that I would construe to be valuable by completing post-secondary education. But to suggest that a non-STEM undergraduate degree actually prepares someone to step into a roll at a corporation and be better prepared that someone that spent four years at that same corporation learning how to do the same job is a belief I cannot subscribe to. In over two decades of public and private work, I've never seen any evidence to substantiate the obverse opinion. That isn't to say that college isn't valuable in and of itself, but I cannot say that folks not obtaining STEM degrees couldn't have achieved more in those four years they spent in college starting at the bottom in the industry they want to be in and working their way up. Choose your path wisely, but always consider all the options.

I was posting a comment to the OP's post, not as a response to yours, but value has nothing to do with a scam. A scam is when you order a million dollar Ferrari and either nothing shows up, or you get a Fiero with a body kit. Otherwise, a Jeep Patriot/Liberty/Compass is a scam, because they're a poor value, but that's not reality. They're not scams, they're just not the best value. So if someone takes a 2hr online course and gets their medical degree, that's a a scam. Whether or not you made the right choice in your early life that works out well for your later life, or whether or not you paid more than you needed to, those aren't scams. You can pick up a hammer and build a house yourself and save hundreds of thousands of dollars, but that doesn't mean you were scammed when you pay more to have it done. And if your friends tell you to buy a Yugo and that it'll change your life and you'll be drowning in bud-light-commercial-hotties, it's only a scam if you don't get the Yugo. Everything else is your error.

 

[Kornholio]

It's a scam if a false promise is pushed on young people. It's a scam if they're mislead to believe that by "investing" $100,000 into the public college system for a degree that they're somehow guaranteed a particular status or wage upon exiting. While that's not happening ubiquitously, it's definitely happening in a lot of cases.

College isn't a scam in and of itself. The myth of a bachelor degree being a guarantee of something to anyone and thus surrendering yourself to decades of debt for a lie is absolutely a scam.

 

[byke]

What you're referring to is public perception. Over 17 million americans think chocolate milk comes from brown cows, but that has no bearing on where chocolate milk comes from. As any sort of generalization, college is absolutely not a scam, unless we're talking about some very specific colleges. Certain "universities" that aren't universities.

 

[lefty]

I don’t think college is a scam, but it is oversold. In fact, one can often make much more by learning a trade like plumbing or electrical. I was a dental technician in the US Army and did alright for awhile after my discharge. I wanted more,though, so I got a job as a technicion in the medical device field. I worked my way up the ladders until I became a principle engineer at several companies. I was very highly sought after and ended up with more than 200 patents. All of this I did with a D- senior year average and no college. So I know it can be done.

That is soooo AWESOME!!!!!

Congratulations. I have a similar work path. I have been at my company 36 years and learned on the job, with some Technical School and College mixed in.

I have a (wonderful friend) who is my Contractor. He does incredible wood work and he has an Arts Degree from Stanford University!!!!!

 

[Climber]

As said plenty of times...it depends.

If a student goes and gets a degree that interests them but has no real professional future, then they likely wasted a lot of money with little gain.

If the student does their homework, goes to a decent (not shit school) college and knows they'll get into a well paying job with upward mobility, then it's absolutely worth it.

I think that all students who are likely to go into debt going to school, start with a community college for 1st two years then finish up the important classes at a good school.

Also DO YOUR HOMEWORK before picking a school!!!! I have a nephew, who for a reason unkown to me, chose a college for his Psychologist masters which wasn't certified. He's now starting another 2 years to get his masters with an accredited college so that he can get certified for higher jobs and greater income. How the hell do uncertified colleges even exist out there to trick people like him? WTF would anybody go to them, aside from getting tricked to get a useless degree?

 

[ST Guy]

That is soooo AWESOME!!!!!

Congratulations. I have a similar work path. I have been at my company 36 years and learned on the job, with some Technical School and College mixed in.

I have a (wonderful friend) who is my Contractor. He does incredible wood work and he has an Arts Degree from Stanford University!!!!!

Thank you!

And for those of you questioning college, check out this awesome book on the subject:

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=shop+cla...x=soulcraft,aps,205&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_3_9

 

[Kornholio]

What you're referring to is public perception. Over 17 million americans think chocolate milk comes from brown cows, but that has no bearing on where chocolate milk comes from. As any sort of generalization, college is absolutely not a scam, unless we're talking about some very specific colleges. Certain "universities" that aren't universities.

As I said before, statistically the average person will spend $100,000+ to attend an in-state school. Even the majority of bachelor degree holding STEM graduates aren't going to make anywhere near that kind of money fresh out of school and likely not for many years after that. A large amount of them will also have taken out highly predatory student loans that they'll be buried under for a decade or more. That is absolutely a scam. Whether or not that's the fault of the college itself is debatable.

 

[byke]

But there's no established formula for creating some sort of threshold where you have to make $x relative to spending $y and above that identifies legitimate schools and below that identifies a scam uni, so that line of reasoning is actually about value and is simply left to the individual to decide whether or not they found their returns worthwhile, and that's not part of defining a scam. But, I can tell you that *I* would happily give you $100k right now to get back $100k on year five, or even ten, because everything before that and everything after that is gravy.

Predatory lending is just capitalism. Young people have shit credit, which means they get shit loans. It doesn't mean these lenders aren't pieces of shit and it doesn't mean they don't morally deserve the wood chipper, it just means this is the system we have to coexist with. At some point, when information becomes widely known, the responsibility shifts more from them, to you. If you choose to smoke cigarettes today, or drink and drive, or do meth, considering how much we all know about it, whatever happens as a result, can't really be blamed on those preying on you anymore. At some point you're not a victim anymore, you're just an idiot. Student loans might not be there yet on the "widely known" side, but it's close. Parents should be in the conversation too.

Also, there are lots of other aspects that contribute to society's perceived value of education relative to employment income. This is getting into american dream stuff that has a lot more going on than student loans. Equality alone means more competition across the board, which means that some percentage of the value argument is nothing-to-be-done-so-stfu-and-deal-with-it kind of stuff. Some of it is outsourcing, more capitalism, nothing to be done about it. The positive connotation that people apply to our systems is erroneous, it just means they haven't been on the other side of it yet, but these kids sure are. Welcome to ameatgrinderica!