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Is Independence Arbitrary?

Var said:
Why does everyone(not just americans) get patriotic for independence day when it's just your government celebrating their freedom to impose their will on you?
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Because there is a level of comfort in knowing that they are not ruled by another "land" or government. We are governed by ours....
 
Melissa said:
The government imposing "its'" will on me?

We the people in order to form a more perfect union..........
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Open by saying that in execution our government, like any other human institution, is less than perfect. That said, like Melissa, I believe that we band together to create our government. If we get distracted, bored, complacent, overwhelmed, whatever, and we let a smaller - unelected - group of us (IIRC, what Madison referred to as "interests") decide what that government is and what it can do, that's not so good.

The whole "we the people" thing depends upon each of us as individuals being willing to band together in good faith to create a government that serves all of us, even if imperfectly. When people say, "the government can't do this", or, "let's keep the government out of that", what I hear is that WE can't do this, and let's keep US out of that.

Creating and keeping an effective government is like paying taxes - it's the cost of living in a civilization.
 
tzrider said:
Along that line, the thing that typically restrains our sense of freedom is fear. When we say that our government imposes restrictions on our freedom, we really are making a choice to avoid the consequences of violating a law by not doing the thing that violates it - speeding would be an example many of us can relate to.

In total anarchy, we would trade one set of fears for another. We may not have a government and laws to place restrictions on us, but you can bet we would be careful about where we went and when we went there. I suspect that most of us would come to find we were less free under anarchy than we are under our present day government.
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this was my argument as well. However it was countered with our perception of "Freedom" truly isn't free but rather a "Right" provided to us that gives us the ability to articulate "Independent Thought".

I still haven't played with this concept well enough yet to have a valued opinion though.

Melissa said:
anarchy benefits the strong of might and mind.
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Indeed a truer statement has never been made. But physical might isn't the same as Intellectual might nor do they always intermingle well. Some of our physically weakest may have some ability for abstract thought that may not be valued in a society where maintaining basic sustenance is the objective.

We don't necessarily value "Resourcefulness" as Intellectual ability.

This whole topic is very..... Interesting though. I'm paying attention to the "Smawt Folk" here and learning. :)
 
Var said:
Why does everyone(not just americans) get patriotic for independence day when it's just your government celebrating their freedom to impose their will on you?
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Why do you refer to the government like a group of people that you're not a part of? You have the freedom to be elect to be come a part of it. If you don't like to be a part of it, you have the right to vote for who will represent you and you can vote on issues. If you choose not to participate in the process, other people will decide for you. :laughing But then you can't bitch about it.

I like to think that's hell of a lot better than having king from another country imposing on you, or a dictator, or an exclusive group of people ruling over you (communists for example).
 
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Morphine said:
Why do you refer to the government like a group of people that you're not a part of? You have the freedom to be elect to be come a part of it. If you don't like to be a part of it, you have the right to vote for who will represent you and you can vote on issues. If you choose not to participate in the process, other people will decide for you. :laughing But then you can't bitch about it.
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I don't believe that to be true. If I did, then I would be less reluctant to celebrate the sheer fact of being independent.

I like to think that's hell of a lot better than having king from another country imposing on you, or a dictator, or an exclusive group of people ruling over you (communists for example).
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I'm not saying I want or don't want it any different.
 
*VillageIdiot* said:
this was my argument as well. However it was countered with our perception of "Freedom" truly isn't free but rather a "Right" provided to us that gives us the ability to articulate "Independent Thought".
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I've heard it said that you don't *have* to do anything but die.

It's an interesting notion that reminds me that everything else we do or don't do in life is a choice based on some kind of a risk/reward balance.

The '"Right" provided to us' is somewhat the same as one anarchist allowing another one to live when they encounter one another in the post apocalyptic world. The main difference is that in our current system, we have nominally agreed to the terms ahead of time.
 
I know that I'm fairly naive and easily buy into ideals. However, a black person from a modest background become the president is great example of democracy in this country.
 
more and more optional it seems.
The manner in which I was raised in my early years paying your taxes was an absolute. I still pay my taxes to this day, never would I consider not doing so.
 
flying_hun said:
Someone stopped taking the meds.
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Hey, I didn't write that stuff. But I feel relieved now that you've apparently done thorough research (on all the citations) and have concluded that it's nothing but baseless fiction and/or propaganda. I was starting to question things! :laughing

No, please - by all means, keep the meds coming. Prozac, Abilify, Ritalin, Lithium, Percoset, GMOs, rBGH, high fructose corn syrup... all federally approved for human consumption, so why would I ever stop taking them?
 
Var said:
Why does everyone(not just americans) get patriotic for independence day when it's just your government celebrating their freedom to impose their will on you?
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The "will" of the people, perhaps..? You know... ...government of the people, by the people, for the people...

I use to have long discussions debates with a friend/mentor about the value of human life when I work abroad for “the government”. We agreed that over time the value of human life has increased in Western society. We singled out the West because the Southern and Eastern hemispheres have too many examples of classes of people who are nearly "valueless". By valueless we meant human life (in some places) is very cheap. Also, the West leads the world in economic power and development, which generates a well-educated society. Its hard to repress a well-educated society – different discussion…

Anyway, there was a time (within recorded history) in the West when most people were valueless (or nearly so). Nobility or the landed/moneyed could do or say anything - provided they had then power to do so. As the West aged new ideas spread and/or were reborn. Yes we could go back further to Babylonia and look at the Code of Hammurabi which helped to ensure "the strong shall not oppress the weak" as framework for the future - but the relevance is found in more recent times… Freedom, democracy, a form of independence, and the notion of a republic gained ground over monarchy and fiefdoms. Documents like the Magna Carta, Declaration of Independence, The Rights of Man, and many more laid the groundwork for the US.

For those who have travel to countries where everyday people have no “value”, from their government’s perspective, I have a question… Having looked at that kind of environment from the inside – would you say we have freedom and independence?

So, you probably guessed, I see no major issues with our government that cant be fixed by a concerted effort, personal involvement, and/or the ballot box. The “government” is not out to get you and strip you of your rights. It is not made up of mindless automatons who don’t care about the rest of humanity. Its full of people just like most of you – independent people who are valued and have freedoms the majority of this planet’s human population do not have and will not get in our lifetime.
 
Good post. I agree with what you're saying about living conditions. Not about changing the govt though. I also don't like to compare us with other countries though because I think that's selling yourself short. I do agree we have it good. But it doesn't really answer the question of independence. We could in theory be ruled by another country and have it better (or worse).

I dont think the govt is out to get me, but the system we have in place is becoming more autonomous over time. The avenues available for corruption and waste are plentiful and I don't think the people's best interests are in mind. Just how I see it. I believe things have gotten bad enough that to have it turn around would require political suicide from most who are in office and that's not going to happen
 
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