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It's a CRASH, not an Accident!

ThinkFast said:
There's no primary actor in an accident. It's not a verb, it's a noun. Crash can be used both ways.

"I crashed" - forces you to own what happened.
"I was in an accident" - leaves entirely open who did what to whom.

So, no. No one is trying to redefine a word. The original argument is simply based on the notion that when I decide to only think in terms of "crashing", and doing whatever I can to avoid it, I remove the "shit happens" option from my thinking. Doesn't mean it won't happen - just means my mindset is not as victim, but as primary actor.

There is nothing implied about the legal or insurance side of this - totally irrelevant to the discussion.
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The relevance of bringing up insurance is that when they are assigning fault to an accident, they certainly think someone owned it. There is nothing about the word that absolves someone of being responsible.

Since you evidently didn't read this, I'll say it more briefly: If you're satisfied with someone saying, "I crashed," you're being fooled. What matters in that sentence is what he would say afterwards:

"...because there was gravel in the corner."

"...because I didn't see the gravel in the corner."

Which of those statements shows the rider owned the crash?

The rider can very easily avoid taking responsibility in this case too. Regardless of which word we each like, the important point is that the rider finds what he or she could have done differently and owns that. "I crashed," doesn't quite prove that has occurred.
 
tzrider said:
No, it doesn't. This is where I keep saying you guys are redefining a word. "Accident" makes no judgement one way or the other on whether the cause was random or negligent. Your insurance company will refer to a collision as an accident and if you're at fault, they'll be sure to let you know.
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Yes, it does. If you drink and ride, you exacerbate the risk intentionally. You make the choice. It’s no longer an accident, but more of a logical outcome.

In other words, you’re the one parsing language against the odds.

Removing responsibility from the legally guilty party. Do you apply this logic to other crimes where there is an apparent cause?
 
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tzrider said:
Nope, I just understand word definitions. You feel that the word "accident" means nobody was at cause. It doesn't.
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No. I feel intent has a role to play. You’re starting out with the commission of a crime. Your actions are deliberate.
 
And you should impart your knowledge of strict dictionary interpretation to the police and organizations that designed the program

I’m sure they’ll appreciate your valuable assistance.
 
Lewd_Ferrigno said:
No. I feel intent has a role to play. You’re starting out with the commission of a crime. Your actions are deliberate.
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We don't disagree about that with respect to drunk driving or about crashing a vehicle while impaired.

That scenario is pretty far removed from what we were originally discussing, but the crash, collision, accident or whatever you want to call it isn't the crime. It's the unintended result of prior actions. In the context of drunk driving, the penalties are absolutely more severe, as they should be.
 
tzrider said:
We don't disagree about that with respect to drunk driving or about crashing a vehicle while impaired.

That scenario is pretty far removed from what we were originally discussing, but the crash, collision, accident or whatever you want to call it isn't the crime. It's the unintended result of prior actions. In the context of drunk driving, the penalties are absolutely more severe, as they should be.
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If the world were based on strict definitions in dictionaries, you’d be killing it.

As it turns out, the world isn’t based on them and common interpretations of words have psychological impact.
 
Lewd_Ferrigno said:
As it turns out, the world isn’t based on them and common interpretations of words have psychological impact.
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^^^^^^
This.

The whole point of my post is about the psychology of riding: managing your attitude, adopting a mindset. I learned from racing that my attitude and overall mental state had a great effect on my performance on the track, so I became more deliberate about being aware of my mental state, and fine tuning the routines and approaches I used to proactively manage it.

Since words are the basis for at least some of our thoughts, and our thoughts are the basis for at least some of our attitudes, I decided to share with others one of the ways of thinking about riding that I found to be helpful, based on how I think about crashing and the role I play in it when it happens (and when you race, you crash - it’s a given).

This really wasn’t meant to be a debate - any more than if I had written a post saying that I prefer Peet’s to Philz. Not everyone will share my preference - why would that be a surprise? My approach to thinking about and managing my attitude toward crashing may resonate with some people, and not make sense to others.

So it is.
 
tzrider said:
Nope, I just understand word definitions. You feel that the word "accident" means nobody was at cause. It doesn't.
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Seems like you're stuck on a single definition of the word "accident" and are ignoring the common connotations of the word. Maybe using a different definition will help clear things up? Here's the one my computer comes up with:

accident | ˈaksədənt |
noun
1 an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury: he had an accident at the factory | if you are unable to work owing to accident or sickness | [as modifier] : an accident investigator.
• a crash involving road or other vehicles, typically one that causes serious damage or injury: four people were killed in a car accident.
• euphemistic used euphemistically to refer to an incidence of incontinence, typically by a child or an animal.
2 an event that happens by chance or that is without apparent or deliberate cause: the pregnancy was an accident | it is no accident that my tale features a tragic romance.
• the working of fortune; chance: my faith is an accident of birth, not a matter of principled commitment | he came to Harvard largely through accident.
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These two definitions illustrate ThinkFast's point perfectly! The example from the second definition ("the pregnancy was an accident") seems particularly applicable given that pregnancy has a very deliberate and apparent cause. The common connotation of the word "accident" is that the event is completely unexpected or happens by random chance. In my experience, that isn't true for the majority of motorcycle crashes...
 
I’ve done more than my share of discussing the word accident. Use whatever word you like. Your insurance company and the DMV still commonly use the word accident and they are not under the illusion that everyone is blameless.

The importance of this thread lies in taking responsibility for what we do on a motorcycle. If using a different word helps you do that, good. As I hope I’ve illustrated above, a person can weasel out of taking responsibility when they use the word crash too. We should all dig deeper to understand which actions had which consequences.
 
Enchanter said:
Focus less on the words describing the event and more on the actions leading up to the event.

Years ago we created the Crash Analysis Forum for exactly this reason.
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Rename it to "accident analysis forum"? We'll be discussing how to keep dog shit off the rugs for eons...
 
:laughing I was thinking about this old thread while riding home with a flat tire on Friday :twofinger
 
Guys, I know that you're already fed up with reading new posts here, but can someone recommend me a good lawyer agency for motorcyclists? Had an accident, the insurance company does not want to pay me.I only heard about lyft accident attorney los Angeles, they also did motorcycles. Literally I was driving a week ago and the driver of the Ford did not want to give in to me when I was changing into the next lane. As a result, I touched the rear wheel a little. I fell, the bike was damaged, but it's good that the speed was not that great.
 
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joelCas said:
Guys, I know that you're already fed up with reading new posts here, but can someone recommend me a good lawyer agency for motorcyclists? Had an accident, the insurance company does not want to pay me.
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There are a number of folks listed in the sponsors area of BARF.

Personally I recommend RiderzLaw, they've taken care of a few of my friends. You can give them a ring at 1-800-574-3379
 
ThinkFast said:
Just read about this campaign in an article today. Interesting. I've been saying this for years (as in this thread in 1Rider here).

Motorcyclists don't have the luxury of shifting the blame to some unknown force when they end up on the ground. Better to ride as if it's always your own fault, rather than assume others will be on the lookout to protect you from crashing. Interesting that there is now this movement afoot to bring similar thinking to driving. I like it!

#crashnotaccident
Www.crashnotaccident.com - sign the pledge!
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I am having trouble understating this. Why is one word better than the other? Thanks!
 
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