Leaked Apache Video

[kevin 714]

^^^ i dont think there is even a shred of threat of al queada occupying us and therbye needed armer patrols in the streets

as fopt the piece of string...itrs a logic fail. the first thing you would do is figure out the length of string to best decide how to gather it up. if its lets say a few feet, then its easy enough to rolit up by hand without a lot of thought.

if its lets say2 miles ling, then only an idipt would do it by hand and just keep wondering how much longer...you would gather and then decide the best course of action, some sort of mechanised option to gather it up....

running into things blindly is about as dumb as it gets

clarification, im not calling you dumb personally, just the analogy

 

[scotinexcile]

no one argues that point....hte issue is the rot of it was not in iraq in any way shape or form. bush, and the american people, took their eyes off the ball and went after someone who had liottle to do with it...forgpt about afgahnistan, did nothing about the issue in saudi arabia. the root of it is in saudi arabia btw...and why dont we do anything about it?? oh wait...

id also like to explain the thought that the war in iraq has anything to do with another 9/11 at our dor. of course it had plenty to do with the london bombings, the madrid bombings...ect ect

Iraq was "unfinished business" for Bush, we should have had the guts to do it "right" the FIRST time. Again Politics hampering the skill and commitment of our Military to get the job finished. I have no doubt that certain elements in Saudi Arabia are involved up to their eyeballs in the recruitment, training and supply of terrorists. What is the government doing about it? Not a whole lot, you want to start paying $10 a gallon for fuel and rationing it?

You would like me to explain the thought or you are going to explain? Not sure what you mean here?

 

[Burning1]

Saddam has been, for the most part, a useful tool for us. Until 1990, he was actually one of the more friendly countries in the region.

Saddam was never a direct threat to us. He never supported terrorism, and if anything, he was effective at keeping terrorist cells out of the country. By all expectations, we can expect a less American friendly government to build in Iraq, and increases in terrorism out of the country in the next 20 years.

We fucked the pooch.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein_-_United_States_relations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_–_United_States_relations

We screwed them; not the other way around.

 

[kevin 714]

Iraq was "unfinished business" for Bush, we should have had the guts to do it "right" the FIRST time. Again Politics hampering the skill and commitment of our Military to get the job finished. I have no doubt that certain elements in Saudi Arabia are involved up to their eyeballs in the recruitment, training and supply of terrorists. What is the government doing about it? Not a whole lot, you want to start paying $10 a gallon for fuel and rationing it?

You would like me to explain the thought or you are going to explain? Not sure what you mean here?

actually yes, i would. in a heartbeat. i would gladly pay $10 to make sure another 9/11 happened.

my question was in regards to you statement if we would like another 9/11 at our doorstep, and that basically infering that the war in iraq has anything to do with the original 9/11, or a new 9/11 style event happening?

 

[scotinexcile]

Very true. Perhaps the root of the problem is our self-centered geopolitical military action? Perhaps the root is so deep that it's going to take decades to kill it?

If you have a fire, you don't put it out by fanning the flames.

If you have a fire you use whatever you can to put out the fire. You then have to make sure it is TOTALLY out. Ask anyone who figs Forest fires, most spring back to life from burning in the root system.

This next paragraph is from my PERSONAL experience, if it disturbs or offends anyone then I apologize in advance

Mistakes happen, no amount of training can fully prepare you for the situations you will end up in this type of combat. All my years of training never fully prepared me for watching ammunition being off loaded from a helicopter with a Red Cross painted on it. Never prepared me watching women and children waiting for a bakery to open in Vitez Bosnia being shot at and killed by Bosnian snipers. Lifting their bodies over the barbed wire so we could get them to our hospital for treatment. Never prepared me for never trusting ANY CIVILIAN who came near you.
Once you live in that type of environment for long enough then you build defense mechanisms to deal with the stress. there is no way a "civilian" who has not been there can understand the way I had to and the way our military has to deal with that stress.
A line from The Untouchables comes to mind " they bring a knife, you bring a gun. They send one of yours the hospital, send one of their to the morgue"
In Bosnia the only way you got respect was who had the bigger gun at the time.

My stuff off
Slightly off topic
Political solutions are the only way to solve the issue, look at Gaza, the big stick approach will never solve the issue in the long run

 

[scotinexcile]

actually yes, i would. in a heartbeat. i would gladly pay $10 to make sure another 9/11 happened.

my question was in regards to you statement if we would like another 9/11 at our doorstep, and that basically infering that the war in iraq has anything to do with the original 9/11, or a new 9/11 style event happening?

It is not just $10 once, it is $10 extra for every gallon of gas that every person in the US uses. I could not afford my bill for filling my tank going from $50 now to $150. I would have to cut back on using my vehicle significantly. I dont think the majority of the American public would be prepared to do that. Until the American people cut their reliance on the car then anyone who has vast oil reserves will "have us by the balls"

I think the war in Iraq has stopped another 9/11 style event from happening on our doorstep. If the war had not happened then I am 100% positive there would have been another event similar to that tragic day.

 

[scotinexcile]

Saddam has been, for the most part, a useful tool for us. Until 1990, he was actually one of the more friendly countries in the region.

Saddam was never a direct threat to us. He never supported terrorism, and if anything, he was effective at keeping terrorist cells out of the country. By all expectations, we can expect a less American friendly government to build in Iraq, and increases in terrorism out of the country in the next 20 years.

We fucked the pooch.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein_-_United_States_relations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_–_United_States_relations

We screwed them; not the other way around.

Why do you quote Wikipedia as fact?

 

[Burning1]

Why do you quote Wikipedia as fact?

Wikipedia, unlike a lot of other resources, is heavily peer reviewed.

You're welcome to perform your own research. If you have a better resource, I'd be happy to read it.

 

[kevin 714]

It is not just $10 once, it is $10 extra for every gallon of gas that every person in the US uses. I could not afford my bill for filling my tank going from $50 now to $150. I would have to cut back on using my vehicle significantly. I dont think the majority of the American public would be prepared to do that. Until the American people cut their reliance on the car then anyone who has vast oil reserves will "have us by the balls"

I think the war in Iraq has stopped another 9/11 style event from happening on our doorstep. If the war had not happened then I am 100% positive there would have been another event similar to that tragic day.

other than your own personal feelings? what, if any, examples could you goive of how the war in iraq would have stopped a 9/11 style terrorist attack?

so what your saying is your bills are more important than the lives of 3000+ americans who died that day?

what have you done to cut your reliance on oil?

 

[kevin 714]

Wikipedia, unlike a lot of other resources, is heavily peer reviewed.

You're welcome to perform your own research. If you have a better resource, I'd be happy to read it.

the gerat thing about wikipedia is that all the articles have their sources at the bottom of the page...its easy to go look at them too

 

[Burning1]

If you have a fire you use whatever you can to put out the fire. You then have to make sure it is TOTALLY out. Ask anyone who figs Forest fires, most spring back to life from burning in the root system.

Terrorism is fueled by the suffering caused by self centered political and military actions. Blowing up more homes, and orphaning more children is not the way to fight it.

Terrorism is not a nation, or a person... It's an ideology, and one that you can't stamp out with force.

 

[n10sive]

Terrorism is fueled by the suffering caused by self centered political and military actions. Blowing up more homes, and orphaning more children is not the way to fight it.

Terrorism is not a nation, or a person... It's an ideology, and one that you can't stamp out with force.

ummm...no. Today's middle eastern terrorism is fueled by whacked ideology and the need to make people conform (to Islam). Now...if you want to look at the Balkans...that's a different story, but they are not flying their planes into our buildings.

 

[Burning1]

And again... Domestic Terrorism is a significantly greater problem in the United States than acts of Foreign terrorism. No amount of foreign military action will change that.

 

[Burning1]

ummm...no. Today's middle eastern terrorism is fueled by whacked ideology and the need to make people conform (to Islam). Now...if you want to look at the Balkans...that's a different story, but they are not flying their planes into our buildings.

Terrorism can come from a lot of sources. I have no disagreement that it requires an ideology... But you must agree that war brings with it death and suffering, and that the death and suffering promotes the the cause of terrorism.

 

[Aluisious]

And again... Domestic Terrorism is a significantly greater problem in the United States than acts of Foreign terrorism. No amount of foreign military action will change that.

I don't see a nuclear terrorist attack coming from domestic dimwits.

The probability of a domestic attack is higher, but the cost of a spectacular al Qaida style of attack greatly outweighs that.

 

[n10sive]

Terrorism can come from a lot of sources. I have no disagreement that it requires an ideology... But you must agree that war brings with it death and suffering, and that the death and suffering promotes the the cause of terrorism.

yes, i agree that it brings death and suffering. My only problem is that the terrorists also bring on death and suffering to their own if needed, and to those that they fight against. At least we question ourselves when we bring suffering to innocents.

So taking your last line, does it also not promote OUR suffering when they fly a plane into a building? Does this not promote OUR behavior?

And as far as trying to prove whether or not invading Iraq reduced terrorism here, which I don't think can be correlated well, I believe the philosophy is that a dog chasing his own tail cannot bite the mailman

 

[Aluisious]

You do not destroy a weed by cutting of the leaves and the stems. You have to go to the root to get rid of it. If you leave the roots alone the weed grows back, usually stronger and larger than before

Iraq had nothing to do with Islamic terrorism in the United States until we invaded it.

No Iraqi had attacked the United States. Saddam had nothing to gain by attacking the United States. Saddam was doing a good job of keeping his country in line with his interests.

If we wanted to "get the roots" we'd attack Saudi Arabia, but instead we put up a terrorist theme park next door to it.

 

[kevin 714]

Iraq had nothing to do with Islamic terrorism in the United States until we invaded it.

No Iraqi had attacked the United States. Saddam had nothing to gain by attacking the United States. Saddam was doing a good job of keeping his country in line with his interests.

If we wanted to "get the roots" we'd attack Saudi Arabia, but instead we put up a terrorist theme park next door to it.

very true indeed

 

[Aluisious]

My only problem is that the terrorists also bring on death and suffering to their own if needed, and to those that they fight against. At least we question ourselves when we bring suffering to innocents.

Try asking some dead people whether they prefer being killed by people who question themselves about it or people who don't. I think you'll find the answer is quite uniform.

And as far as trying to prove whether or not invading Iraq reduced terrorism here, which I don't think can be correlated well, I believe the philosophy is that a dog chasing his own tail cannot bite the mailman

The dog is not chasing his own tail. The mailman has climbed the fence and is hitting the dog while he's being bitten. He's still been bitten. Only difference now is the dog didn't have to get over the fence to get to the mailman and everyone thinks the mailman is an asshole for breaking into the property.

Big improvement there.

 

[scotinexcile]

other than your own personal feelings? what, if any, examples could you goive of how the war in iraq would have stopped a 9/11 style terrorist attack?

so what your saying is your bills are more important than the lives of 3000+ americans who died that day?

what have you done to cut your reliance on oil?

Terrorists had bases in Iraq, they were supplied with weapons and money from Iraq which could have been used to create a 9/11 type event on our doorstep. The British blockade of Northern Ireland by sea stopped tons of weapons and explosives being brought into the conflict. This undoubtedly saved lives in that situation. Most were from Libya but the parallel I believe can be drawn Weapons for Conflict

No this nation as a whole whole "freak out" if the price of gas went so high. I was using an example that I knew exact amounts for. I was expecting you to be able to extrapolate that amount and see the true impact it would have on our society, not me as an individual.

I work mostly from home, using remote control software to help clients. i used to fly at least twice a month which I dont now. I have 1 street bike instead of the 3 I used to have. I must admit these "savings" are mostly economic and not idealogical in nature. Yes my oil usage is lower than it was 2 years ago, is yours?