Learning safe speed for corners

[tzrider]

I doubt all this [interesting] talk about sliding tires on a street bike is too useful to the OP's question.

On one hand, I don't think he's asking how to slide, but he did ask this:

Are there signs that tell you you're about to lose traction?

People have given him a lot of advice that, while good things to do, don't answer the crux question that the OP asked above and that many other riders have.

 

[JurisRider]

I overcame the same "problem" not by progressively increasing my speed, but by working to refine my technique (which I largely learned from books and videos) at a modest speed. I practiced looking through turns, deliberate counter steering, taking exactly the line I wanted to, shifting my weight, being super smooth on all the controls, etc.

I think some of my best practice came from times I when I was "stuck" behind a car going slow on a twisty road. Being forced to go slow meant I stayed well within my comfort zone, so I could focus on improving my technique. Picking roads with constant tight turns was also great practice (Mines, Mt. Hamilton, Diablo, Calveras, everything that branches off Skyline). As I became more confident that I could make my bike do exactly what I wanted, I found I was also going faster without really thinking about it.

FWIW, I still sometimes find it enjoyable to go on rides where I am focused on technique rather than pushing the speed envelope, sort of like what is described in the article "The Pace."

 

[tzrider]

Are there signs that tell you you're about to lose traction? Here's what I have in mind when people say to practice to learn limits:

Going around the same turn:

20 mph. OK
21 mph. OK
22 mph. OK
23 mph. OK
24 mph. OK
25 mph. OK
26 mph. OK
27 mph. Low side

"Oh... I guess I shoulda stay at 25 or below"

OP, we haven't seen you post in this thread since the first post, but if you're still checking, here's another perspective on the above. If the real question concerns being able to set your entry speed accurately for the corner, give this article a read for a practical drill that will help:

http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=310

 

[domingo3]

Figured I'd check in and say thanks for all the replies. I have a (irrational) fear that the tires are going to give out way, way before they ever would. You've given me some food for thought. I may have to do some more reading and take advantage of some of the resources unique to the bay area, like riding clinics.
Some of the others' comments confirm that the track days I went to were not helpful to me, at least in the form that I received them.

Cheers

 

[louemc]

Figured I'd check in and say thanks for all the replies. I have a (irrational) fear that the tires are going to give out way, way before they ever would. You've given me some food for thought. I may have to do some more reading and take advantage of some of the resources unique to the bay area, like riding clinics.
Some of the others' comments confirm that the track days I went to were not helpful to me, at least in the form that I received them.

Cheers

It's a complex issue, so the fear of the unknown, is sorta rational.

Experience gained in small steps, teaches reading the surface conditions, and staying in-bounds of them.

A most valuable experience includes riding dirt, and...all the varieties of recovery from slips and slides. Recovery is key.

Doc Wong clinics (from what I hear) are pure Gold...for several reasons...there are so many overlapping issues here.

 

[DocWong]

OP, you are right in not wanting to overstep the boundaries of traction or skill level. Worrying about the limits of traction is something most riders wonder about from time to time. The good news is that, assuming you have a relatively competent bike with decent modern tires, that traction limit is fairly far away with a good cushion left over.

Of course basic riding errors can use up that traction cushion easily. I'd suggest working on specific, basic riding skills, one by one and practicing those. Most riders will naturally begin to ride faster (within the confines of rational speeds) as they gain in skill.

Most likely you're missing on some basic skills in riding that may be holding you back. A good place to start is with Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist I. Read a chapter and do a ride. Repeat for each chapter and you may be pleased.

 

[domingo3]

Hope it's OK to resurrect my old thread. I just finally watched the Twist of the Wrist 2 DVD. I conceptually understand most of what's in there, and feel like I could apply bits of it at a time, but in some ways, I feel like a kid in a calculus class who hasn't mastered arithmetic.

Now that I've seen the "slide bike", I really wish that I could jump on that thing for an hour in an open lot. Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel that if I could calibrate my head and ass into what a truly hard turn feels like, then I'd have the confidence to work slowly on my other skills. Again, I have no desire to do the advanced techniques to take corners as fast as possible. I just want to have the confidence to take corners at 50% coasting or on steady or slight throttle roll on (I know enough that's the the "ideal" way to maximize traction). Is there any way to do something like the slide bike besides the superbike school? The rest of the school would be a waste on me in the stage of training I'm in.

 

[UDRider]

Well you can try Rich Olivers Mystery school. It's in dirt, and teaches your more how to flat track, but side benefit of it is you get to play around on a small bike in bad traction. This does give more confidence on street, and kind of helps not to panic when things do step out a bit.

 

[domingo3]

This is where my boneheadedness comes in. So, slide does not equal crash for the average rider? In my mind, sliding was something only top level riders would do. I was believing that the rider input was how much force you're feeling in the seat and how you are tracking your line.

 

[flying_hun]

This is where my boneheadedness comes in. So, slide dies not equal crash for the average rider? In my mind, sliding was something only top level riders would do. I was believing that the rider input was how much force you're feeling in the seat and how you are tracking your line.

The point of ROMS is to get a rider accustomed to managing a bike beyond the limits of traction so that when it happens on a paved surface the rider can deal with it. What often happens is a rider feels a small slip on gravel or a tar snake, panics, then does all wrong things, leading to a crash. Crashing when sliding is not inevitable. ROMS helps you respond appropriately.

That said, I don't think you need either a slide bike or even ROMS right now - based on your own description of your riding. It sounds as if you have a belief problem. A decent bike on decent tires on a clean road will corner remarkably hard. Believe it. There is so much more to riding twisties well than maximum lateral acceleration. You got some great advice from several posters (DataDan) and other already regarding the things you should work on. Work on those things.

 

[domingo3]

Kurt,
You hit the nail on the head. Still, my problem is that I feel I have no way to judge WHERE beyond my belief problem lie the true traction problems. Since I don't know, I don't progess. At all. Maybe I need a shrink, not a motorcycle expert.

 

[tzrider]

Kurt,
You hit the nail on the head. Still, my problem is that I feel I have no way to judge WHERE beyond my belief problem lie the true traction problems. Since I don't know, I don't progess. At all. Maybe I need a shrink, not a motorcycle expert.

You're not going to find that out in the dirt or on the CSS slide bike. Both of those environments offer less traction than you typically have on clean dry pavement and are intended to help you learn how to manage a slide when one begins.

The platform you need to have well in place before looking for the traction limit is solid throttle control. Until you can reliably make yourself roll the throttle on or off deliberately, even when you're scared, it would be a bad idea to see how hard you can corner.

 

[louemc]

You're not going to find that out in the dirt or on the CSS slide bike. Both of those environments offer less traction than you typically have on clean dry pavement and are intended to help you learn how to manage a slide when one begins.

The platform you need to have well in place before looking for the traction limit is solid throttle control. Until you can reliably make yourself roll the throttle on or off deliberately, even when you're scared, it would be a bad idea to see how hard you can corner.

Typically doesn't mean squat...

The public street/road is a study in "not typical'...

A rider needs to learn the recovery moves, from the lost traction, events.

Those moves incorporate what flat trackers do, to go around a dirt track corner, at something like 100 mph. And all the lesser speeds of trail riding.

The learning comes faster, in the company of pro's that give pointers on what they do.

Riders that are advancing will seek out clinics and classes, and taking in a Doc Wong clinic, would be one of those places.

 

[tzrider]

Typically doesn't mean squat...

The public street/road is a study in "not typical'...

A rider needs to learn the recovery moves, from the lost traction, events.

I agree with you that he should learn what to do if the bike slides, but:

1) If his throttle control isn't already good, he has no platform from which to do that and

2) That's not the question he has been asking, like it or not.

 

[louemc]

I agree with you that he should learn what to do if the bike slides, but:

1) If his throttle control isn't already good, he has no platform from which to do that and

2) That's not the question he has been asking, like it or not.

#1. is the sticky wicket ... A rider doesn't know what throttle control finesse is..
Until they have developed it in the nasty slick situations, that are also so far and few between in the variables of the public road surfaces....
That they know they have it.

That's also what makes riding dirt/mud/sand, "the school" ... The lessons, come, at a frequency that they stick, in the subconscious where they can get called on, before the rider, knows they are needed.

 

[UDRider]

You're not going to find that out in the dirt or on the CSS slide bike. Both of those environments offer less traction than you typically have on clean dry pavement and are intended to help you learn how to manage a slide when one begins.

The platform you need to have well in place before looking for the traction limit is solid throttle control. Until you can reliably make yourself roll the throttle on or off deliberately, even when you're scared, it would be a bad idea to see how hard you can corner.

What about doing some track days? Corners are the same and they repeat. It's a controlled environment and since corners repeat one can practice throttle control on same corners over and over. So there is repeatability factor. Also he can do no brakes drills that do help with being smoother on throttle and corner transition.

If throttle control is not there then probably ROMT isn't the best way to go. The format is awesome for building confidence, but I think there is underlying assumption of certain level of skill. Otherwise rider will end up low siding a lot. Specially during mud drills.

 

[tzrider]

What about doing some track days?

It would be a great idea. Even better if under the guidance of an instructor.

 

[domingo3]

You're not going to find that out in the dirt or on the CSS slide bike. Both of those environments offer less traction than you typically have on cleaners dry pavement and are intended to help you learn how to manage a slide when one begins.

The platform you need to have well in place before looking for the traction limit is solid throttle control. Until you can reliably make yourself roll the throttle on or off deliberately, even when you're scared, it would be a bad idea to see how hard you can corner.

I'm not saying I do, but even if I had the best throttle control in the world, it wouldn't help me with my issue. I probably have decent throttle control for a street rider, and no desire to compete. I can have all the skills in the world and execute a 90 mph turn at 40 mph flawlessly and not progress. I guess my issue is not common.

 

[tzrider]

I'm not saying I do, but even if I had the best throttle control in the world, it wouldn't help me with my issue.

Having good throttle control won't answer your question in and of itself, but without it, you can't safely explore the limit because you wouldn't know which end will slide first. It's easier to deal with a rear slide than a front slide and it's vastly easier to deal with any slide if you can predict which tire is most apt to slide. Without good throttle control, you don't have any way of knowing which tire is under more load.

I probably have decent throttle control for a street rider, and no desire to compete. I can have all the skills in the world and execute a 90 mph turn at 40 mph flawlessly and not progress. I guess my issue is not common.

Your issue is common to nearly all riders. It's a small percentage who know exactly how much grip is available and can reliably ride to and a little beyond that limit. Predicting traction is one of the great riddles that keeps riding so entertaining.

The best environment in which to reduce variables is a racetrack. The most productive use of time at this stage is to get some real instruction, where you have a drill to focus on each riding session and a good observer (a coach) to give you feedback and guidance on how you're doing with that skill.

A vague plan to see how far you can lean it over is asking for trouble and won't teach you a whole lot in and of itself. Setting realistic goals with respect to the skill you're working on, assessing where you're getting better and where you're still having more trouble leads slowly but surely to more confident cornering.

As your speed increases, you will eventually begin to notice the sensations of an impending slide, some of which I mentioned in my first post in this thread. By taking a disciplined, incremental approach, where you change one thing by a small amount, you shouldn't have a huge surprise when you encounter the indications of a slide.

 

[flying_hun]

Domingo, do yourself a favor. Pay attention to Andy's advice.