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MSF Too expensive?

a "real" motorcycle license in Germany costs >>$2000 and takes about 3-6 months to complete. This does not include the 2 yr waiting inbetween the "license tiers".


so - WHAT are you complaining about?????

IF you think $200 something is expensive - then you have not understood how much money you will dump into this sport.
 
SloDuc said:
blackonblack said:
Thats a thing that does NOT make sense to me. You'd think that under 21 would be the more expensive, since younger kids are a little more cockier. What justifies paying more because you're older?

I think the lower price for the young'uns is to encourage them to take the course. Most people under 21 aren't making much money. The lower price makes it easier for them to get the training.
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Yeah because us "older" folks with kids,mortgages,health,life,and dental insurance, student loans, 401ks, IRAs ,and collage saving accounts have much more of a deposable income then the high school crowd.:laughing
I get what your saying but perhaps they should make it cheaper for all to encourage it for all.
I would gladly pay a few extra bucks for my registration so more people could afford the course.
Or maybe they could offer a BRC for people who own bikes already. They would have less overhead and could pass the savings on to the students.
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In the larger scheme of things, 250 dollars is nothing. In what you'll save in insurance alone should be incentive enough to do and complete a MSC. Hell, your gear will cost more then 250 dollars.

Like everyone else in this discussion, spend the cash, take the class and learn the skills that can save your ass when and if that unfortunate time comes around.
 
Enchanter said:
Please stop and gain more real information. You are working off of hearsay and it is incorrect.

Here is a very basic breakdown:
14-16 motorcycles ($3300-3600 each) (very few are loaned not donated, most are purchased)
Fuel and maintenance of the above.
20 helmets
Ridercoach pay ($20-30hr)
Site Manager pay (None of your business)
Classroom & Range rental (at some locations, this is 50% of the tuitions received)
Rental of the office (duh)
Insurance (yes every bike and student and Ridercoach is insured when taking the class)
Workbooks ($3)
Office staff pay (to enroll and process paperwork)
And more I cannot remember right now.

Also, the reason the course is free to Military Members is that it is required. This is only part of the hundreds of things that Uncle Sam provides for free to the Military.

You are not reading my responses, or you are ignoring them. The skills(wtf?) are not free. Someone is paying for them, it just may not be evident upon enrollment.

Your statement about not needing a permit to take the classes is only partially correct. You need to be able to legally operate a vehicle on the road to be able to attend the class. It could be a permit OR a (automobile) license. One or the other.
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There is no class room ,range rental, or Site manager to pay for a class on base. But it still cost the same.The real funny thing is that when you put someone over the age of 21 on those bikes the cost jumps up $100. The military offers it free because they are concerned with safety not because it is mandatory. There is a lot of mandatory military things that my wife and I still pay for.

My point is if cost of the MSF BRC is $250 per student anywhere in the union and poor rust belt states with cold winters , short riding seasons and less bikers like Ohio and Michigan can offer the class for $25 and $15 on their budgets California should do something similar to bring down the cost if they are concerned with safety.
 
ever heard of the economic laws of supply and demand?

how about the fact that everything (land) is more expensive in areas where people actually WANT TO LIVE.

sounds like you should just start your own school, since you have all the knowledge that all the school owner's, who have been in the business for years, are missing :thumbup
 
slydrite said:
ever heard of the economic laws of supply and demand?

how about the fact that everything (land) is more expensive in areas where people actually WANT TO LIVE.
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Yes that is why I was asking about other training. More training options = competitive prices.:thumbup

sounds like you should just start your own school, since you have all the knowledge that all the school owner's, who have been in the business for years, are missing :thumbup
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:rolleyes. Yes because a person asking to find a cheaper training program thinks he knows it all.That make sense :rolleyes
 
hordak said:
There is no class room ,range rental, or Site manager to pay for a class on base. But it still cost the same.The real funny thing is that when you put someone over the age of 21 on those bikes the cost jumps up $100. The military offers it free because they are concerned with safety not because it is mandatory. There is a lot of mandatory military things that my wife and I still pay for.
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You are fooling yourself if you think that the (Civilian) organization that is providing training on Travis isn't paying rent. You are also way off target if you think that military units are not operating within a budget that Uncle Sam assigns to them. The CO may not write a rent check every month, but it doesn't mean that $ assigned to his unit isn't being spent.

Again you are fooling yourself if you think that it's free to the Military because they are concerned with safety. When it all comes down to it, it's $. The Military looses personnel to motorcycles crashes at an alarming rate. They loose a butt-load of money when they cannot use the assets (people) they have trained. THAT is the real reason. If you think that the Military actually cares, then it's painfully obvious that you haven't seen both sides of the Military.

Before you continue commentary about things that you are unclear on, let me give you a little background on myself.

I've been teaching the MSF programs for damn near 19 years now. While I was active duty military, one of my many collateral duties was to manage the Base military motorcycle training course (MSF related). I'm now a civilian that manages a civilian motorcycle facility (MSF related) in the Bay Area. I am also clear on the agreement that Travis AFB has with the civilian organization that provides the training on the base. The owner/manager of that facility is a acquaintance of mine.

The fact of the matter is that EVERYTHING is more expensive in CA. Also, the State of CA has chosen NOT to subsidize the California Motorcycle Safety Program (CMSP) in an effort to lower cost to students. The fact that the cost is less in other states doesn't mean that the course is free/inexpensive/or cheap. Those states are very likely paying the tuition FOR the students. Just because the tuition is lower doesn't mean the student isn't paying for the class in some other way (taxes, registration fees, etc.). Students are paying for it alright, it's just not labeled as 'tuition'.

hordak said:
My point is if cost of the MSF BRC is $250 per student anywhere in the union and poor rust belt states with cold winters , short riding seasons and less bikers like Ohio and Michigan can offer the class for $25 and $15 on their budgets California should do something similar to bring down the cost if they are concerned with safety.
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CA is concerned with motorcycle deaths (notice I didn't say 'safety'), and they are bringing down the cost(s). I can assure you that EVERY facility in the state wants to charge more for the class. Our contract with the State of CA forbids it.

And to use your reference of states with shorter riding seasons...
Could you not then imply that since the total cost of a motorcycle safety program is a lot less, that the legislators would be more willing to fund the program?

hordak, we get it. You are pissed that you have to spend more $ than you want to spend, but until you come up with a knowledgeable fact based argument, all you are really doing is ranting.
 
Oh, have you noticed that the Military is outsourcing much of their 'service' and jobs? Do you think that the Base HQ on Travis is staffed 100% by the AF? Again, you would likely be surprised.

As an example, the Base Safety Office was 100% civilian. Do you think that they did it for free?

hordak said:
Yes that is why I was asking about other training. More training options = competitive prices.:thumbup
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I agree with the basic thought you have here, but $235 is about as low as I can go and still remain open as a business. The cost of operation in CA is just too high.
 
MSF is the most official and AFAIK best game in town. For two fiddy you get a solid two days of instruction and avoid some DMV unpleasentries.

Pony up the money, it's the same as a good pair of tires. Get used to shelling out $s regularly if you want to ride responsibly.
 
Enchanter said:
Again you are fooling yourself if you think that it's free to the Military because they are concerned with safety. When it all comes down to it, it's $. The Military looses personnel to motorcycles crashes at an alarming rate. They loose a butt-load of money when they cannot use the assets (people) they have trained. THAT is the real reason. If you think that the Military actually cares, then it's painfully obvious that you haven't seen both sides of the Military.
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:rofl I've seen both sides and the concern with money. The safety and expense is rolled into one.
It is free because it saves them money in the long run yes.But its not free because it is mandatory. There are plenty of mandatory things that my wife and I pay for out of pocket because it is cheaper for them make us pay then for them to provide it.But yes I am well aware of how it works on the others side. I went through and saw enough crap while on that side to understand.


Before you continue commentary about things that you are unclear on, let me give you a little background on myself.

I've been teaching the MSF programs for damn near 19 years now. While I was active duty military, one of my many collateral duties was to manage the Base military motorcycle training course (MSF related). I'm now a civilian that manages a civilian motorcycle facility (MSF related) in the Bay Area. I am also clear on the agreement that Travis AFB has with the civilian organization that provides the training on the base. The owner/manager of that facility is a acquaintance of mine.
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Thus the bias J/K


The fact of the matter is that EVERYTHING is more expensive in CA. Also, the State of CA has chosen NOT to subsidize the California Motorcycle Safety Program (CMSP) in an effort to lower cost to students. The fact that the cost is less in other states doesn't mean that the course is free/inexpensive/or cheap. Those states are very likely paying the tuition FOR the students. Just because the tuition is lower doesn't mean the student isn't paying for the class in some other way (taxes, registration fees, etc.). Students are paying for it alright, it's just not labeled as 'tuition'.
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I know I already addressed that fact. That is why I said California should do something about. If states with small budgets, less riders and shorter seasons can do it Cali should look into it also. There are more riders here to spread the cost over


CA is concerned with motorcycle deaths (notice I didn't say 'safety'), and they are bringing down the cost(s). I can assure you that EVERY facility in the state wants to charge more for the class. Our contract with the State of CA forbids it.
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Haven't seen that yet. Did see the price jump up

And to use your reference of states with shorter riding seasons...
Could you not then imply that since the total cost of a motorcycle safety program is a lot less, that the legislators would be more willing to fund the program?
Click to expand...

Less people in the people who ride means less people to pay for the program through registration/title fees.But they do it fine. see above.

hordak, we get it. You are pissed that you have to spend more $ than you want to spend, but until you come up with a knowledgeable fact based argument, all you are really doing is ranting.
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It is not a rant. Well it wasn't supposed to be. It was just an question about other training besides the BRC. I think your the only person who actually answered that which seems to be no. So let me ask you this. How is the ERC?
 
Obscura said:
In the larger scheme of things, 250 dollars is nothing. In what you'll save in insurance alone should be incentive enough to do and complete a MSC. Hell, your gear will cost more then 250 dollars.
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This has been brought up several times in this thread but I just don't see it - I'm insured through Progressive, and they gave me a 10% discount for having the certificate from the BRC, but that was 10% off the liability portion of the insurance only. In the end that worked out to a whopping $2.00 for the year - at that rate the BRC fee will be paid for in what, 125 years? Maybe that's the penalty I pay for having a good driving record and getting full coverage for such a great price?

I think if you're taking the class solely for the reduction in insurance rates you're deluding yourself - take the class increase your knowledge and if you get an insurance break consider it icing on the cake.
 
Alan_Hepburn said:
This has been brought up several times in this thread but I just don't see it - I'm insured through Progressive, and they gave me a 10% discount for having the certificate from the BRC, but that was 10% off the liability portion of the insurance only. In the end that worked out to a whopping $2.00 for the year - at that rate the BRC fee will be paid for in what, 125 years? Maybe that's the penalty I pay for having a good driving record and getting full coverage for such a great price?

I think if you're taking the class solely for the reduction in insurance rates you're deluding yourself - take the class increase your knowledge and if you get an insurance break consider it icing on the cake.
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+1
21st century couldnt seem to care less that i took the BRC, ERC, supercamp etc.... no discount.
 
FWIW, State Farm gave no break for BRC.

As stated, it's the way to go for a hassle free riding test thats DMV approved, and 16 hours of instruction.

You're paying $15 an hour, half the time sitting on a bike someone else maintains and insures, on private property that has to be rented. A fine deal, IMO.
 
The discount is ONLY given by Progressive. I read it somewhere, maybe the MSF website itself. When getting quotes, the $/yr comes down by enough to warrant me taking the MSF even if I was above the age of 21.
 
Welcome to California! If you are not happy with what it costs to take the MSF course here in California and you feel you should only have to pay what some other states offer their MSF BRC for, then maybe you should work out a deal to take the class there and get the savings. When it is all said and done though, the MSF course you are going to get up at the site at Travis AFB is going to be very good and thorough one (I’ve taken several MSF courses up there) and when it is all completed I am certain you will feel you received more than your monies (and time) worth even if you didn't have to pay it yourself in knowledge, skill development, motorcycle familiarization, and coaching. They are very thorough up there and I'm quite familiar with the facility and all the staff.

As was just mentioned above, for a person paying for this class they are only going to pay about $15.66 per hour for the 15 hours of classroom and range sessions, which is pretty cheap in this day and age for this level training. I can guarantee you each and every student receives a substantial amount of individual attention every hour they are there in the classroom and on the range. Another thing to remember and keep in mind is that not every student passes on their first attempt to complete the class. Some students either might not pass the written and/or skills evaluation test at the end of the course, OR they might not meet some of the necessary exercise objectives during the range session and be asked to come back and retake some or all of both range sessions. With most sites, all that additional instruction time in another session is a freeby and the student does not have to pay more money. The site owner bears that cost and some students have might have to take the some or all of Day 1 and Day 2 on the range one or even more times to successfully complete the course and pass the required tests.

I can assure you whether you look at the cost one student or the entire class collectively pays for a MSF BRC or even the ERC course, neither the site owner, the site manager or any of the MSF RiderCoaches that you encounter and work with you are getting rich with the money that is exchanged. I think you'll be extremely happy with the knowledge, the training and the overall structure and content of the course. It is very well setup and very well might help save your life and give you added incentive to try to be the best and most skilled motorcyclist you can be, and that IMO is priceless ---- isn't it??

Take the course, hold off on your concerns and criticisms of what you "perceive" as being unfair and make your determination if you got your monies and times worth after you are all done and have the graduate card and your DL-389.

Good luck,

DaleC
 
^^^ wow, well said,....I wish I had that kind of patience for people that have the obvious go right over their heads in favor of far more complicated, useless information/explanations

hordak, I'm sorry I was too sacastic for you to even 'get', please move back to where ever you came from so that you are able to take the BRC for $50 or so dollars less than you can take it here.

thanks for leaving
 
When refering to California having a bigger budget and thinking they should kick in more for the MSF training, consider where that money has to be taken away from to support it.

You? (Higher taxes)
Kids? (public schools)
Highways? (taken away from maintenance crews)

Money has to come from somewhere. California may get a lot of money, but they also burn a lot of money. Personally, I really like only paying $20 a unit at the local college right now and prefer to keep it that way.

Something else to consider, compare the price of track days to the MSF course. It seems hard to swallow paying that much for the MSF now, but soon as you hit the track you will quickly find the same money every month :laughing
 
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