Official aerodynamic / winglet thread [SPOILERS: Nerds inside !!111!]

[stangmx13]

IMO, 'active' means it moves without driver input. 'manual' means moves only with driver input.

in old F1 and GP/WSBK, active suspension is suspension that is adjusted in real-time by the ECU. same deal.

but it doesnt matter. this is the rule for GP. theyve eliminated all confusion by using the word "moving".

Wings may be tted provided they are an integral part of the fairing or seat and do not exceed the width of the fairing or seat or the height of the handlebars. All edges of any wings tted must have a minimum radius of 2.5 mm. Moving aerodynamic devices are prohibited.

 

[Pierre I am]

IMO, 'active' means it moves without driver input. 'manual' means moves only with driver input.

in old F1 and GP/WSBK, active suspension is suspension that is adjusted in real-time by the ECU. same deal.

but it doesnt matter. this is the rule for GP. theyve eliminated all confusion by using the word "moving".

Great find. It's going to be interesting seeing the factory's messing around with different winglets.

 

[kevin 714]

 

[stangmx13]

i think the Mahindra moto3 winglets are the best. they dont need any help from wheelie. but they do need to better direct airflow around the riders hands. the more laminar they can keep the air, the less drag the bike will produce and the worse of a draft a following rider will get. gaining HP w/ those little engines and keeping them reliable is likely a huge cost compared to experimenting w/ aero.

 

[Pierre I am]

i'm fascinated by boundary layer stuff. It's great to see this evolution in the motorcycle world.

Btw what are the rules for their body suits and helmet?

 

[sckego]

DRS was the only permitted active aero in F1 if I recall correctly. There was definitely some shadier stuff done earlier and banned when found out. Toyota did some spectacularly crafty "fixed" flexible rear wing in LeMans back in 2013 or so.

My favorite was the F-Duct where the drivers would actually block off a vent opening in the cockpit with their hand or leg in order to stall the rear wing. You'd see drivers taking their hand off wheel while doing 200+ down the straights and press it against the side of the cockpit

 

[Bassem]

Kev is gonna blow a valve... F1 in CRC... It was bound to happen with all the strakes

 

[stangmx13]

i'm fascinated by boundary layer stuff. It's great to see this evolution in the motorcycle world.

Btw what are the rules for their body suits and helmet?

rules for safety requirements were just added this year. i havent seen any rules regarding shape. but i wouldnt be surprised if the safety requirements all but make it impossible to do anything serious w/ airflow.

GP riders already do have little extra pieces on their helmets to help w/ aero effects. theres usually a clear plastic thing on the chin bar and an extra spoiler or two on the back. i expect it keeps their helmet from floating around a 200mph.

 

[Spec-ECU]

Kev is gonna blow a valve... F1 in CRC... It was bound to happen with all the strakes

He needs to upgrade to desmo.

 

[Phanuel]

My favorite was the F-Duct where the drivers would actually block off a vent opening in the cockpit with their hand or leg in order to stall the rear wing. You'd see drivers taking their hand off wheel while doing 200+ down the straights and press it against the side of the cockpit

Oh yeah, that was good stuff too. Took quite awhile for the other teams and scrutineers to work that one out.

 

[Pierre I am]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UlsArvbTeo&app=desktop


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqTSyFz6DJc&app=desktop
To help visualize

 

[clutchslip]

I contend that the winglets are having minimal effect. Ducati has an issue, because they have a very torque orientated engine at higher revolutions, and need to get the front down. For everyone else the effectiveness is nominal. This was covered in an article linked in another thread.

The wing area is minuscule compared to the drag coefficient of a motorcycle. The wings on F1 cars are very large compared to the drag coefficient of the car. It is a completely different ballpark and one is not really comparable to the other.

If the wings become active and about twice the size, then we might be talking nice effects to keep the bike planted in turns and settled down at 350 kph flying. Until then, I am seriously not convinced that winglets will win a championship this year.

 

[stangmx13]

I contend that the winglets are having minimal effect. Ducati has an issue, because they have a very torque orientated engine at higher revolutions, and need to get the front down. For everyone else the effectiveness is nominal. This was covered in an article linked in another thread.

The wing area is minuscule compared to the drag coefficient of a motorcycle. The wings on F1 cars are very large compared to the drag coefficient of the car. It is a completely different ballpark and one is not really comparable to the other.

If the wings become active and about twice the size, then we might be talking nice effects to keep the bike planted in turns and settled down at 350 kph flying. Until then, I am seriously not convinced that winglets will win a championship this year.

u cant compare an area and a dimensionless coefficient. but i think i understand what u are trying to say.

drag is a horizontal force which is not part of the winglet convo.

winglets and F1 wings produce downforce. for F1, we compare that force to the weight of the car. F1 wings (and the rest of the aero on the car) do produce downforce greater than the weight of the car.

for GP we are talking about limiting wheelies. so u gotta compare winglet downforce to the force lifting the front tire. given that these bikes are fighting a wheelie practically every acceleration zone, we know that the sum of forces is small. so a small winglet downforce can help to offset any wheelie force. but i said "can", since we can only guess at magnitudes.

on top of that, we have no idea how much more HP they can wind in through the electronics for a given amount of winglet downforce. maybe 10lbs is 1HP, maybe its 10HP. only the data technicians and crew chiefs know.

 

[cencalballer]

Wow, I'm nerding out more than I thought I would here. Those Mahindra ones are excellent. They looks fantastic and you can clearly see the goal of them.

 

[Zerox]

What if a winglet broke off and hit a rider in the throat?

BAN THEM

 

[mel3535]

Do we even really know what the wings really do? I heard it provides downforce to keep the front end down? But then again I feel like more riders are using it because they believe it does something.

 

[Shaggy]

Do we even really know what the wings really do? I heard it provides downforce to keep the front end down? But then again I feel like more riders are using it because they believe it does something.

Just like the Rossi leg dangle...

 

[mel3535]

Just like the Rossi leg dangle...

I feel like it's all in their head, Ducati started using it and then Yamaha tried it and now everyone seems to be doing it.

Also correct me if I am wrong, but if the wings help with the downforce to keep the front down, won't they increase drag also?

 

[Pierre I am]

The winglets most likely help keep the front pushed into the ground which should allow the riders*theoretically* get on the gas quicker / harder.

Motogp has millions spent on research and with the electronics they have I'm sure they noticed a difference. Even if it's just a third of a second per lap that adds up nicely for an entire race.

Plus if the rider feels like he has better control of the front the confidence attribute is priceless.

 

[Shaggy]

I feel like it's all in their head, Ducati started using it and then Yamaha tried it and now everyone seems to be doing it.

Also correct me if I am wrong, but if the wings help with the downforce to keep the front down, won't they increase drag also?

It might reduce the top speed, but these bikes are never stretched to the very limit of power versus wind resistance.

I think the limiting factor in getting the power to the ground on bikes with this much power is the wheelie control. If you can add downforce to keep the front wheel planted, then more power can be added to the rear wheel making you go more fastererer.



I'm just anti-winglet because they look ridiculous. Looks like that Kawasaki H2R abomination.