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r6 stuck exhaust shims

S

slummy

New member
Joined
Jan 18, 2003
Location
VJ
Moto(s)
06 r4.5
05 Zx-10
rs125 project
derbi
misc
Name
owen/#423
Heyo,

This is my 2006 r6 crippled 450. Bought last year, I did nothing to the motor (at all) and it ran well.

But it's a great time to check valves, and yeah, 3 intake were out of spec, and another 3 exhaust were borderline.

My problem is this: 7 out of 8 of the exhaust side shims are not coming out. (Including 2/3 of the ones I'd like to adjust on exhaust side). (All 8 intake shims can be removed easily).

In my limited experience, they just come out with the bucket (bc magnet). These did not. So, here's a list of what I've tried:

Cams out. TDC on 1. Trying to remove valve from 2.

Tapping shim with punch.
Spinning shim with very sharp Craftsman pointed stick thing. Wouldn't spin.
Stack of rare-earth magnets.
16 lbs magnet on Napa telescoping rod.
Placing 14mm socket over retainer and tapping with light hammer.
Depressing retainer with the same 14mm socket.
Spraying brake cleaner and then trying all those again.
Pressurizing cylinder with leak-down kit and re-trying 14mm tapping
Pressurizing cylinder and retrying pushing down on socket.

With the leak-down, I can hear the air flow change when i push down or tap, so the valve is actually opening rather than the stem pushing the shim out.

So, any other ideas?
 
ah -- good idea -- but I should add to the master list above that I'd tried heating with a heat gun to a couple hundred F before tapping also.

All I have left (but not tonight):
1) remove radiator so I can get a really good whack at the retainer. kinda scary thou
2) jb-weld a small flat head nail to the shim. that's gotta work, unless it doesn't. and then there's no going back.
 
I don't know YAM heads (only 2-strokes), so hard to comment w/o any knowledge. I've had hard to remove shims on KAW/SUZ IL4's, but never to the extent your experiencing. Maybe bike was overheated (guess?)

A few other tricks: Combo of torch & ice (dry-ice?) might work on smaller shims (like the KAW's lately run); where you'd torch the valve spring holder/keeper than attach a socket or something holding dry-ice to the shim. Heat & cold would typically loosen it. Try dry-ice on your shim? Hmmm...

Very strong magnet; standard/small magnets don't always do it. An electro-magnet might (see Utoob for video how to make one.)

Synthetic oil on shim will sometimes loosen it. Some use penetrating oil & let sit overnight.

Some type of round vacuum device; suction cup on a very clean/dry shim.

JB Weld would be a last resort try; because you might have a hard time getting it off. A new shim would be the cure rather than trying grinding down the left over JB Weld smutz which could damage shim.

Time for a port lapping, or valve job. Remove the head & take it to a expert who likely knows a few tricks too. May as well if it's the last resort.

If you got the head off, gee time for a port job & at least new rings/seals. Might even be time for some larger/higher compression pistons? ;)

Hope this helps....-ebd
 
Oh, most excellent. I asked for a video on the FB group. You haven't failed to deliver if that was you!
 
Owen, that sucks!

I agree with trying to heat the spring retainer, that might work. That in concert with rapping on the retainer, but make sure you are at BDC on the cylinder you are wacking. Also, I like to use softer materials than the engine components, but it might not matter since the retainer is not a camming surface.

Other than that, you might have to pull the head and use a spring compressor plus smacking it.
 
Also, spot weld if you are willing to sacrifice the shim. I have a kit if you need a certain size.
 
ACA said:
Owen, that sucks!

I agree with trying to heat the spring retainer, that might work. That in concert with rapping on the retainer, but make sure you are at BDC on the cylinder you are wacking. Also, I like to use softer materials than the engine components, but it might not matter since the retainer is not a camming surface.

Other than that, you might have to pull the head and use a spring compressor plus smacking it.

Also, spot weld if you are willing to sacrifice the shim. I have a kit if you need a certain size.
Click to expand...
all three good suggestions! :thumbup
 
ACA said:
but make sure you are at BDC on the cylinder you are wacking.
Click to expand...
no need to be @ BDC, theres a decent amount of PtoV on that motor & unless you're beating the shit out of it with a hammer or have the cam timing off by 5+ teeth you'll be fine.

op i'd try lubing the shit out of it with penetrating oil & use a quality 20pd magnet or rare earth magnet to remove the shim.
 
Are you sure you are not trying to remove the top of the valve stem? If the buckets came out OK, I would assume the shims would too. I do know that sometime the shims stick to the inside of the buckets.

People do screwy things to bikes. I wouldn't be surprised if they were removed because someone read specs wrong...

PS If you love your bike, valve train is probably the worst place to use a hammer.
 
thanks all!

i was reluctant to apply lots of heat and/or temperature differentials, because I can imagine myself not knowing about some coating or Ti that would cause damage. And then people would laugh at me. On Barf. But good to know.

I had though about JB weld on a nail head -- only downside to that would be not being able to measure the shim properly. Like if the shim number was gone or wrong.

Penetrating oil better than brake cleaner? I'll try that. Can never use too much lube, especially as the parts get older.

I did try a 16 lbs magnet. I see there are some magnetic cubes online which rate at 100+lbs. Ha, all the loose metal in my shop will be stuck to the outside of the engine case. I'll order one, if I can't find locally.

So, recent development as of late last night. I dropped the radiator and the coolant was like milk. So, maybe the head is coming off anyhow. I'd rather ignore the milky aspect of the coolant, bc maybe the problem was fixed before i had the bike and just didn't flush the radiator. But i doubt that, and this is going to be the best time to take a look.

As far as mods, it's a 450P bike. So, no fancy pistons. I'd guess with the time-frame, I'll be doing the work myself. This is a new task for me, so hopefully it turns out to be not bad.
 
dowlinginchico said:
Are you sure you are not trying to remove the top of the valve stem? If the buckets came out OK, I would assume the shims would too. I do know that sometime the shims stick to the inside of the buckets.

People do screwy things to bikes. I wouldn't be surprised if they were removed because someone read specs wrong...

PS If you love your bike, valve train is probably the worst place to use a hammer.
Click to expand...

Yes, i'm sure the shim is still in there. Exactly 7 out of 8 exhaust valves did not come out with bucket. At least 2 of them (the 2 i've tried) are tragically stuck. One of these 2 is borderline tight; the other, borderline loose.

Love usually doesn't start with a hammer.
 
Phanuel said:
Aye. Now for stage two, with fires and tragical adhesive application!
Click to expand...

i think the head is coming out. milk coolant found late last night. Unless someone tells me to ignore it.
 
milky coolant usually means that oil is getting into the coolant system. could be a head gasket or oil cooler seal failure. a leak-down test will point you in the right direction.
 
elskipador said:
milky coolant usually means that oil is getting into the coolant system. could be a head gasket or oil cooler seal failure. a leak-down test will point you in the right direction.
Click to expand...

I'm reading about how to do leak-down testing now. I bought a crappy tester -- will play with it tonight.

also potential crack in head ? ty
 
slummy said:
I had though about JB weld on a nail head -- only downside to that would be not being able to measure the shim properly. Like if the shim number was gone or wrong.
Click to expand...

You should measure the shims anyhow just to be sure. But it seems like the bike might have deeper problems that are way beyond my shady tree / trailer mechanics-ery.
 
if they were running water wetter it could turn milky if they used too much of it but the fact that you have tight shims and milky coolant points to overheating / blown head gasket

i wonder if this could be caused from disabling one of the cylinders? if done incorrectly? how was the bike crippled?
 
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