SFO plane crash (7/6/13)

[Marlowe]

http://flyingprofessors.net/what-happened-to-asiana-airlines-flight-214-2/

 

[sanjuro]

According to the article, the co-pilot had over 3000 hours in type. That means the co-pilot was the Captain, and in charge. You can't learn to fly without taking the controls. The captain is to blame for not monitoring the FO and calling a go around early enough.

Keep in mind experience is measured in flight time. LA and back is like 2 hours. He had 43 hours of flight time in type. 9793 hours total.

Yeah, it wasn't like the pilot had just gotten his license. He had a lot of hours, just not in that particular model. But the captain did.

My guess is that there is a massive screw-up which has not come out yet. There seems to be a system in place of an experienced captain with a co-pilot with lots of hours in other planes, plus I assume all the computer flying aids which makes accidents like this rare.

So what is the big secret that caused the crash?

 

[msethhunter]

GOD DAMN! So much mis-information in this thread from the BARF "experts."

 

[msethhunter]

:|



http://www.courant.com/news/breaking/hc-san-francisco-plane-pratt-0707-20130706,0,5657768.story

Pratt & Whitney has sent a team of employees to San Francisco to help in the investigation of the crash of an Asiana Airlines jetliner powered by the company's engines.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/07/asiana-airlines-flight-214-abort-landing_n_3558625.html


The plane's Pratt & Whitney engines were on idle, Hersman said. The normal procedure in the Boeing 777, a wide-body jet, would be to use the autopilot and the throttle to provide power to the engine all the way through to landing, Coffman said.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines_Flight_214

The aircraft used on Flight 214 was a Boeing 777-200ER, registration number HL7742, powered by Pratt & Whitney PW4000 engines, originally delivered to Asiana Airlines in March 2006.

Try reading sometime.

Do a little more research. They have been delivered with all kinds of engines, including Rolls Royce and GE. I don't have the time right now to look, but a check of the serial number would tell what kind of engines it had. Simply thinking that it had Pratts on it, while not necessarily wrong, probably is. They only used Pratts on the first few serial numbers.

 

[msethhunter]

Have any professional, large-scale airline pilots chimed in yet? I really don't want to wade through the google "I got this" crowd.

(Been out in the woods for a few days, so I'm catching up. Don't want to waste time)

Simple answer from listening to what the NTSB had to say is they got low, slow, and at idle power. Turbine engines are similar to turbo's in terms of lag time. It's not instant response. There was also a HUGE lack of standard call outs from what the NTSB said. When you start to vary from Vref (landing approach speed), you are supposed to announce it. Typically, you fly Vref +5 knots. I don't know this airlines policy, but my airline, and those that my friends fly all fly that way. If it's gusty, you add half your gust factor as well. In short, these guys really fucked up, BAD. No excuse for them.

And the pilot that was in "training" was probably not the one at the controls. EVERY PILOT has to go through what's called IOE on the line(Initial Operating Experince). They fly with a check airman who is experinced in the airplane to keep an eye on the "new guy." He still had to pass a checkride in a full motion sim before he got to the airplane. He would have been what is considered a "high mins" pilot. With the complexity of the Bay Area's air space, 90% of operators require a more experinced pilot be at the controls.

The calls made during the crash were way late. This has been a problem with the Asian carriers for a LONG LONG time. They whole hirarchy of Captain/First Officer/Flight Enginer(on airframes that still have them) has led to a few accidents in the past because of the whole "respect your elders" mentality. There was a 747(I think) that flew right into a mountain because the FO was afraid to speak up, and it killed everyone. I would imagine that this probably played a part in this accident as well. I think it was a JAL flight that that happened to.

 

[msethhunter]

http://flyingprofessors.net/what-happened-to-asiana-airlines-flight-214-2/

Shhhhhh! Your hap-hazard semi-knowledge is muddying the waters. Even if the GS was out, there is still the PAPI and the FMC/FMS will generate them a glide slope to follow. Simply put, these guys were probably tired from the long flight, and royally fucked up. The 777 is an fairly well automated machine. These guys weren't using it, and they should have been. The auto-throttles should have been engaged, and they weren't. Likewise, with spool time from idle, standard practice is to keep the engines off idle the whole way in to reduce spool time. These guys were at idle, HUGE MISTAKE! They fucked up.

Oh, and because of the size of the 777, and how far back and below the wheels are, they typically fly the GS on a PAPI with three whits and one red. These guys were below from a long ways out, and idle, lost to much speed, got a stick shaker, and then, way to late, called for a go around 1.5 seconds from impact. at 7 seconds before impact, they finally started making calls that something was wrong. That was when the go around should have been initiated, and the call for it should have been a few seconds prior. I mean fuck, they tore the tail and one engine off on the sea wall! I few feet shorter, and this accident would have been a LOT worse.

 

[V4]

homeland security / TSA stops one of the survivors from giving an interview..

[youtube]y5D235xKhS4[/youtube]

 

[ALANRIDER7]

Do a little more research. They have been delivered with all kinds of engines, including Rolls Royce and GE. I don't have the time right now to look, but a check of the serial number would tell what kind of engines it had. Simply thinking that it had Pratts on it, while not necessarily wrong, probably is. They only used Pratts on the first few serial numbers.

It was established from the start that the plane had Pratt and Whitney engines. Duh.

 

[msethhunter]

It was established from the start that the plane had Pratt and Whitney engines. Duh.

I figured you were smart enough not to trust the media, especially when it comes to aviation. When I get a little bit of time, I'll check the serial number from the NTSB database and then see what engines it has. The majority of them have the Rolls Royce.

 

[bikeama]

GOD DAMN! So much mis-information in this thread from the BARF "experts."

You are in the sink.

Unless something comes out everyone agrees the flight crew in the cabin screwed up.

One thing I know for sure is the flight attendants did a great job, and no one is giving them any credit on the news. Getting people off in an emergency is their number one job, not getting you your drink.

 

[ALANRIDER7]

I figured you were smart enough not to trust the media, especially when it comes to aviation. When I get a little bit of time, I'll check the serial number from the NTSB database and then see what engines it has. The majority of them have the Rolls Royce.

Why would Pratt and Whitney scramble a go team to the scene if the plane had Rolls Royce engines?

 

[msethhunter]

Why would Pratt and Whitney scramble a go team to the scene if the plane had Rolls Royce engines?

Where was that reported, AND accurate?

Edit: never mind. I just saw it.

 

[TripleSeven]

homeland security / TSA stops one of the survivors from giving an interview..

[youtube]y5D235xKhS4[/youtube]

WTF.

 

[V4]

You are in the sink.

Unless something comes out everyone agrees the flight crew in the cabin screwed up.

One thing I know for sure is the flight attendants did a great job, and no one is giving them any credit on the news. Getting people off in an emergency is their number one job, not getting you your drink.

Ktvu gave props to one of the attendants for saving lives by fighting with a man who blocked others while trying to get his luggage got hurt but still did her job to get others to safety

 

[NorCalAthlete]

 

[louemc]

Unless something comes out everyone agrees the flight crew in the cabin screwed up.

One thing I know for sure is the flight attendants did a great job, and no one is giving them any credit on the news. Getting people off in an emergency is their number one job, not getting you your drink.

Yeah, the plot thickens...Yesterdays CNN news had cherry picked a part of Asiana's report...making it sound like this Pilot in training was the Pilot in charge and no mention of the other Pilots in the cabin that had landing a 777 at SFO experience.

A guy with his smart phone at the restaurant, this morning...read me the complete report.

 

[vato_loco]

One thing I know for sure is the flight attendants did a great job, and no one is giving them any credit on the news. Getting people off in an emergency is their number one job, not getting you your drink.

I think they're finally getting their due. Asiana 214 flight attendants did what they were trained to do when that 777 went down -- they got their passengers out of the burning jetliner. Great job!

 

[mike23w]

.

any theories why the stick shake happened so late?(ie when the plane was too low to do anything about it)

 

[teg916]

The stick shaker is set to go off when the airplane reaches a specific angle of attack (basically when their airspeed is very close to stalling). They can be below the normal approach speed, and above the stall speed, so no stick shaker.

My guess would be when the pilots saw their error, and tried to correct for being too low, the stick shaker went off because they lost more airspeed by pulling up.

 

[afm199]

They found a bunch of parts and part of the tail in the sea wall and ocean.