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Shotgun v Pistol

DaveT319 said:
Granted, if you have to spin around in a hallway, you'll have to drop it to "low ready".
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I actually recommend using a high-ready position inside the home, especially in limited visibility. Less chance of catching your musket's front sight post on the armrest of your couch :p
 
Eisernkreuz said:
I actually recommend using a high-ready position inside the home, especially in limited visibility. Less chance of catching your musket's front sight post on the armrest of your couch :p
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OK, but if you have it up, your hands, forearm of your off-hand, and the weapon itself limit a bit of your visibility as well.
 
Eldritch said:
There are plenty of scenarios where you can imagine it's an issue. Say you come home while your house is being burglarized. You immediately go through the open front door to your armory (usually a bedroom closet) so you can sweep the house...
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You would really enter the house, not knowing where the intruders are? What if they meet you just inside the doorway? What if they are in the bedroom where the weapons are? To me, it's completely foolish to enter the house on a burglary in progress.

But that's not the point. I guess I'm more of a tactical thinker in that I won't put myself in a position where something can get in the way of me spinning around to cover my 6. And if I hear a noise, unless it is a family member screaming because they're being raped/killed, I'm not going to rush headlong to the source of the noise, because then you expose yourself to that second burglar who you didn't know was there.

But take your example of the lamp being in the way of turning. So you take the shotgun off your shoulder, put it in at your hip, spin, and take a shot. After the first, you rack in a fresh shell and then bring it up to your shoulder for an aimed shot (if necessary). This isn't much different than what you would do with a handgun: you'd have it out at arm's length taking aim at the first bad guy, you'd pull it in to pivot to the second guy, and then you'd short-arm an unaimed shot, after which you would bring it back up to an extended-arm (one- or two-hand) stance to aim the next. There really isn't going to be much time lost between the two.

Fact is, we can play out an infinite number of scenarios, trying to prove why one is better than the other. I'll just sum up by saying I'll go with a short-barrel shotgun and 00 buck for home defense. And I'm confident that I'll be able to handle just about any situation with it.
 
DaveT319 said:
You would really enter the house, not knowing where the intruders are? What if they meet you just inside the doorway? What if they are in the bedroom where the weapons are? To me, it's completely foolish to enter the house on a burglary in progress.
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Yes. If I am armed. Again, I know where my weapons are, and their status and location of available ammo.

DaveT319 said:
But take your example of the lamp being in the way of turning. So you take the shotgun off your shoulder, put it in at your hip, spin, and take a shot. After the first, you rack in a fresh shell and then bring it up to your shoulder for an aimed shot (if necessary). This isn't much different than what you would do with a handgun: you'd have it out at arm's length taking aim at the first bad guy, you'd pull it in to pivot to the second guy, and then you'd short-arm an unaimed shot, after which you would bring it back up to an extended-arm (one- or two-hand) stance to aim the next. There really isn't going to be much time lost between the two.
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Meanwhile, you're trying to move your shotgun ala' movie actor slow motion bullshit... I've already cleared the lamp and dropped 2 rounds into a threat in motion towards me.

It's simple thinking, and FAST action that keeps you alive. You won't have the fucking time or instinct to move around shit. PERIOD. Even people trained to do so, struggle against the fight or flight instinct. And moving a barrel over or around an object... :laughing Yeah good luck with that.


DaveT319 said:
Fact is, we can play out an infinite number of scenarios, trying to prove why one is better than the other. I'll just sum up by saying I'll go with a short-barrel shotgun and 00 buck for home defense. And I'm confident that I'll be able to handle just about any situation with it.
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FWIW: I will not disclose the weapon I use for home defense. Other then to say it has BOTH a Laser and Flashlight module on it. I WILL go in search of a noise in the house when I know damn well no one (living here) is in that area. I will not light the path and give away my position. I will however blind the person on the other end to make god damn sure he/she realizes what the fuck can go down. :thumbup
 
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DaveT319 said:
OK, but if you have it up, your hands, forearm of your off-hand, and the weapon itself limit a bit of your visibility as well.
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This is true, I was just being funny about scratching your couch :p. There's no free lunch here. When I, hypothetically, enter someone's home with an M4, I don't know the layout. I don't know if they have crap everywhere, where the furniture is, so I go high-ready. I'm also not alone, though, so my blind spot is likely covered by someone else.
 
Eldritch said:
Last time I had to sweep my place because the woman heard a noise, I kept all the lights off and used night vision naked.
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how does being unclothed help you when using night vision goggles?
 
tuxumino said:
how does being unclothed help you when using night vision goggles?
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Eldritch is a pasty white person like me. Being naked while using NVGs is actually a huge bonus, as the white skin will reflect all sorts of ambient light for the NVGs to pick up. That way you don't have to use your IR illuminator.
:p
 
Here are a couple good tips for the mall ninjas who insist on house clearing...

[youtube]3Xcfw63JTLU&[/youtube]

(Heyyyy, who do you think the guy with the machete is? Nahhhh, can't be!)

I would add this: Don't turn on the lights and backlight yourself as shown.
 
DaveT319 said:
You would really enter the house, not knowing where the intruders are? What if they meet you just inside the doorway? What if they are in the bedroom where the weapons are? To me, it's completely foolish to enter the house on a burglary in progress.

But that's not the point. I guess I'm more of a tactical thinker in that I won't put myself in a position where something can get in the way of me spinning around to cover my 6. And if I hear a noise, unless it is a family member screaming because they're being raped/killed, I'm not going to rush headlong to the source of the noise, because then you expose yourself to that second burglar who you didn't know was there.

But take your example of the lamp being in the way of turning. So you take the shotgun off your shoulder, put it in at your hip, spin, and take a shot. After the first, you rack in a fresh shell and then bring it up to your shoulder for an aimed shot (if necessary). This isn't much different than what you would do with a handgun: you'd have it out at arm's length taking aim at the first bad guy, you'd pull it in to pivot to the second guy, and then you'd short-arm an unaimed shot, after which you would bring it back up to an extended-arm (one- or two-hand) stance to aim the next. There really isn't going to be much time lost between the two.

Fact is, we can play out an infinite number of scenarios, trying to prove why one is better than the other. I'll just sum up by saying I'll go with a short-barrel shotgun and 00 buck for home defense. And I'm confident that I'll be able to handle just about any situation with it.
Click to expand...

Well, for starters, I know it's not the smartest, but when I see the door has been breached, I go in with knife in hand, sneak to my weapons and sweep my place before I even call the cops. It's just me, but I'm mainly interested in catching the guys more than having the Police protect me. I did have to deal with that scenario once, but I'm just territorial like that. I don't think weapon length should be the primary consideration, but of course I think we can agree that it obviously IS something that should be considered. As you point out with your tactical movement example, at the end of the day, it really comes down to the weapon you are most expert with. Better to use the .22 revolver you never miss with than the SAW that you can barely swing.

tuxumino said:
how does being unclothed help you when using night vision goggles?
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1) No clothing movement to give away my position.
2) No shoes to make noise on the hardwood.
3) No time wasted looking for my drawers on the floor in the dark. Leave the fact that I was able to grab my night vision out of the closet and my Glock from its place in the dark with my eyes closed as a simply attribute of my character. :laughing
4) If dude turns on a light when I start whispering to him in the dark, he's gonna be a whole lot more emasculated than if I was ONLY pointing a pistol at him. :teeth

Eisernkreuz said:
Eldritch is a pasty white person like me. Being naked while using NVGs is actually a huge bonus, as the white skin will reflect all sorts of ambient light for the NVGs to pick up. That way you don't have to use your IR illuminator.
:p
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I used the IR light in the Living room after I was in there listening for a second. We had blackout curtains in that big ass room and there was just NO ambient light.
 
Eisernkreuz said:
Eldritch is a pasty white person like me. Being naked while using NVGs is actually a huge bonus, as the white skin will reflect all sorts of ambient light for the NVGs to pick up. That way you don't have to use your IR illuminator.
:p
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:rofl:rofl:rofl
 
Eldritch said:
1) No clothing movement to give away my position.
2) No shoes to make noise on the hardwood.
3) No time wasted looking for my drawers on the floor in the dark. Leave the fact that I was able to grab my night vision out of the closet and my Glock from its place in the dark with my eyes closed as a simply attribute of my character. :laughing
4) If dude turns on a light when I start whispering to him in the dark, he's gonna be a whole lot more emasculated than if I was ONLY pointing a pistol at him. :teeth
.
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this sounds like the plot for those movies they film where Valgar works.

bow chica wow wow
 
this why, even with a clean record and the willingness to pay the tax stamp, law abiding citizens are not allowed SBRS in CA. Might keep the upper hand against crooks, and special interest fear tactics wouldn't work so well.

Even an old Thompson goes where you point it when you're ready for a bullet hose.

Eldritch said:
NOTHING shoots easier than a SMG with a shoulder stock. I only got to fire my buddy's MP5 once, but I was AMAZED at the buttah. Pistol recoil in a shotgun sized weapon with all the stability and accuracy of firing from the shoulder down a long iron sight. No wonder Spec Ops guys choose those things for CQB Ops. It's fucking candy to drop on target every time.
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Somebody's taking their home defense cues from Patrick Stewart in "Safe House" :teeth

Eldritch said:
Well, for starters, I know it's not the smartest, but when I see the door has been breached, I go in with knife in hand, sneak to my weapons and sweep my place before I even call the cops. It's just me, but I'm mainly interested in catching the guys more than having the Police protect me. I did have to deal with that scenario once, but I'm just territorial like that. I don't think weapon length should be the primary consideration, but of course I think we can agree that it obviously IS something that should be considered. As you point out with your tactical movement example, at the end of the day, it really comes down to the weapon you are most expert with. Better to use the .22 revolver you never miss with than the SAW that you can barely swing.



1) No clothing movement to give away my position.
2) No shoes to make noise on the hardwood.
3) No time wasted looking for my drawers on the floor in the dark. Leave the fact that I was able to grab my night vision out of the closet and my Glock from its place in the dark with my eyes closed as a simply attribute of my character. :laughing
4) If dude turns on a light when I start whispering to him in the dark, he's gonna be a whole lot more emasculated than if I was ONLY pointing a pistol at him. :teeth



I used the IR light in the Living room after I was in there listening for a second. We had blackout curtains in that big ass room and there was just NO ambient light.
Click to expand...
 
So... curious. Why is the length of a shotgun such an issue? Last I checked, California requires a minimum of 18" barrel and 26" overall length-- seems pretty compact and length comparable to SMGs.
 
morthrane said:
So... curious. Why is the length of a shotgun such an issue? Last I checked, California requires a minimum of 18" barrel and 26" overall length-- seems pretty compact and length comparable to SMGs.
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Trying to assess logic in gun laws. :laughing
 
Nah, not a question about gun law logic. (talk about an oxymoron!)

The question was poised to those who are concerned with the maneuverability of a shotgun in close quarters, like inside a house. Legality of the weapon is, IMHO, rather critical when you have to explain to the police and a jury why you killed a home intruder in self defense... hence bringing up the California standard for non-semi-auto shotguns. A double barreled shotgun that meets the minimum 18" barrel and 26" overall length is pretty small. A typical SMG like an MP5-- per wiki-- is anywhere around 27" to 32" long.
 
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