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SPLIT from Fatality on Skaggs - Bap

we got some regular Perry Massons up in here

perry-mason.jpg
 
nweaver said:
However, when you squeeze the brake, you can also look at brake pad thickness. A flashlight helps, but you can make do with sunlight.
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If something gets repeated enough, it comes to be viewed as fact. With all this talk about his brakes, we're starting to act as if it's a known fact that poor brakes caused Ollie's crash. But it isn't a known fact. Nobody knows why he crashed. Ollie being a mechanic, I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt on his decision to ride.

We can certainly take the wake-up call to question others about equipment condition when it comes to our attention. But there's some passion, harshness and judgment in play here, where it may not even be warranted.

Emotions are running high right now over all the RIP threads. Some of us have seen it before and some have not. To me, it seems like there are more of these reports this spring than in recent years past. Maybe there are more riders on the road. Maybe it's just that BARF membership is so much larger than it was in the past. Whatever the case, we're hearing about a lot of people dying.

It's common on many motorcycle forums for the discussion to swing to what the rider did wrong. People sound harsh and critical. Some make it seem as if they would never commit a similar error. I believe at the root of it is the need to create as much distance as possible between ourselves and meeting such a fate. If you strip the nonsense away, fear is doing some of our talking for us. It's cloaked under layers of emotions and justifications, so it often looks like something else.

Let's all be brave and generous enough to mourn this rider without casting blame every which way. If there is something practical to learn, let's learn it, but be wise enough to know when it's done.

I'm sorry I didn't know Ollie. If I did know him, it would be harder to hear about his passing, but from what some people are saying about him, it would have been worth it.
 
tzrider said:
If something gets repeated enough, it comes to be viewed as fact. With all this talk about his brakes, we're starting to act as if it's a known fact that poor brakes caused Ollie's crash. But it isn't a known fact. Nobody knows why he crashed. Ollie being a mechanic, I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt on his decision to ride.
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We DO know however that he made a statement about the brakes needing to be replaced, and that nobody DID anything about it.

And its more just "what's a good safety check in the future", so that if someone says "my brakes are bad", even in jest, or if you have questions about a fellow rider's bike, you can check and see.
 
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nweaver said:
We DO know however that he made a statement about the brakes needing to be replaced, and that nobody DID anything about it.

And its more just "what's a good safety check in the future"
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nweaver said:
However, when you squeeze the brake, you can also look at brake pad thickness. A flashlight helps, but you can make do with sunlight.
Click to expand...

True. But having adequate thickness does not necessarily equate to adequate braking performance. You could glaze over some perfectly thick pads and have shit braking. Checking pad thickness only tells you how thick they are. Nothing else.
 
And you don't need to squeeze the brakes to check thickness. Just look with the flashlight as an aid. Pads don't suck up and away from the rotor when you release the lever. So, no lever squeezing is needed. Just the right view and enough light.
 
Also, it's entirely possible that the brakes were fine when he started his ride and then due to the spirited pace and/or some other unforseen problem, the system gave out. Pads and/or rotor glazed, air in the lines, simple overheating, etc. Likely we'll never know.
 
I think the reason that everyone is beating this to death is that people want a false sence of security that they won't die on their own bike because hey, "The brakes work fine on the bike that I ride."

When the reality is, any number of factors, on a motorcycle can add up to our own demise.

Who knows what realy happend because it doesn't realy matter now, can't replace the brakes to go back and try again to see if there is a different outcome. The only thing we can do is make sure that our own equipment is up to par and that we continue to ride alert and within our abilities.
 
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Motorcycling is like Russian roulette... The odds are you'll survive just so long as you stop pulling the damned trigger.
 
If you all want, I'll go up to skaggs and take some pics of the crash site and spend particular attention the road surface this weekend. Even with one small rain, some evidence will be left. I will have to say that if what the CHP told me is correct, there was another fatal m/c crash there 4+/- weeks prior, and others have mentioned car damage to the gaurd rail. Based on things i've read, Olie was an expert rider, and to blow a corner like this one would have to have involed influences other than rider error. At least that is what I would hope to believe, the other idea is to friking sobering. This other influence could be brakes, animals, or another vehicle. Olie might know...but based on my recent crash (yet to be published on any boards) I had to look at the road surface and scrapes on the bike and my leathers to figure out what happened, and I was there!

When we look onto our hearts and souls, may we find peace there.

Mark
 
Not much point in going up there to look for clues IMHO. There could be many factors that can't be seen. And even if you do find 'something', it'll all still be conjecture. I once worked the exit of turn 2 at Seca and a lot of guys were going down just past the apex. At the end of every session, we'd go out there and inspect and feel and inspect more. Couldn't find a thing. Finally, after the 3rd or 4th inspection, we thought we felt a very slight slipperyness on one particuar part of the surface. Some sweep and it was taken care of. Apparently one of the vintage bikes had been misting oil around the track and left just enough in one small spot to cause several riders to low side. The point being that it can be extremely difficult to really find the true cause of an incident.
 
Look guys the damm bike has breaks..glazed maybe I dont know,the turn poor ollie went down on is not to crazy and not alot of breaking needed....skaggs is a fun flowing road that you can run 55-65 with out alot of braking...IF YOU KNOW THE ROAD!!!!!!!!!!!!! the guy knew how to ride/knew how to work on a bike/worked in a bike shop that parts like break pads are so cheap do we all realy think he would risk it...I dont..just hate to see all the blame on him and the riders out that day...shit happens and will again...Im sure there was somthing else that day in that turn...we where all telling each other about the cops out there maybe he thought he saw somthing and tried to slow up and gave it to much brake..maybe to much rear..we will never know,that same day I had a possim run out in front of me close to the same turn...that could have happened...but for now and from what has been said about the brakes on the bike in the yard they did not cause him to crash unless he grabbed a huge handfull in a panic out there...I dont know for sure but I thought I heard there where no skid marks,was he evean trying for brakes?????? like I said at a pretty good rate of speed out there not much braking is needed...unless your going 80-120 on skaggs....
 
FASTFLEE said:
Look guys the damm bike has breaks..glazed maybe I dont know,the turn poor ollie went down on is not to crazy and not alot of breaking needed....skaggs is a fun flowing road that you can run 55-65 with out alot of braking...IF YOU KNOW THE ROAD!!!!!!!!!!!!! the guy knew how to ride/knew how to work on a bike/worked in a bike shop that parts like break pads are so cheap do we all realy think he would risk it...I dont..just hate to see all the blame on him and the riders out that day...shit happens and will again...Im sure there was somthing else that day in that turn...we where all telling each other about the cops out there maybe he thought he saw somthing and tried to slow up and gave it to much brake..maybe to much rear..we will never know,that same day I had a possim run out in front of me close to the same turn...that could have happened...but for now and from what has been said about the brakes on the bike in the yard they did not cause him to crash unless he grabbed a huge handfull in a panic out there...I dont know for sure but I thought I heard there where no skid marks,was he evean trying for brakes?????? like I said at a pretty good rate of speed out there not much braking is needed...unless your going 80-120 on skaggs....
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It's almost funny how many contradictions that are in your post. :rolleyes

One part you say he had brakes, the next part you say he didn't need brakes unless he was going a certain speed, but he could have grabbed a handful, but there aren't any skid marks.


You must be a lawyer, because you leave just enough ambiguous statements to cover yourself no matter which way this goes. Basically, you are arguing for the sake of arguing your point on something that can't be proved one way or the other.

Nice. :|
 
No asshole!!!!!!!!!!!!! Im just trying to defend a rider from the bashing he does not deserve.....I feel badd for him his freinds and the guys there that day that guys are pointing blame at...Im done....:twofinger.sorry I just hate lawers..hit a touchy spot:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl I love it...I get neg rep for standing up for a fallin rider..you guys on here rock:wow:wow class what class...
 
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Look, I think fastflee is hurting and hoping that somehow his friends' crash wasn't his own fault. Can't blame him for that. It's even a possibility. Heck, part of me even hopes that's the case.

It's not very likely, though.

The ODDS are something Ollie did directly led to his accident. Going too fast for his familiarity of the road; overlooking some deficiency in his equipment; an animal he could have avoided if riding more conservatively... three of the many variables that alone or in combination caused us to lose what seems like everyone agrees was a Good Guy.

What we say with 99.9% certainty is we'll never know. Even if someone had the cash to fund a thorough investigation, the results would be expressed in some percentage of likelihood.

We can still learn a lot about ourselves and the circumstances regarding OUR riding. We can choose to ignore it, too. There are as many ways of dealing with the loss as there are individuals reading these posts.

I feel terrible for Ollie's family and friends, including fastflee. I'm not trying to heap blame on Ollie, either. It's a damn, DAMN shame he and all the others before (and those to come) are lost to this sport we enjoy.

But we cannot lose sight of the fact that a LOT of the time we can do more to make each and every ride more survivable, yet still fun, by doing things like slowing down a little, paying closer attention to our equipment and respecting the variables that aren't in our control.

Old riders don't get to be that way by sheer luck.
 
essvee said:
Look, I think fastflee is hurting and hoping that somehow his friends' crash wasn't his own fault. Can't blame him for that. It's even a possibility. Heck, part of me even hopes that's the case.

It's not very likely, though.

The ODDS are something Ollie did directly led to his accident. Going too fast for his familiarity of the road; overlooking some deficiency in his equipment; an animal he could have avoided if riding more conservatively... three of the many variables that alone or in combination caused us to lose what seems like everyone agrees was a Good Guy.

What we say with 99.9% certainty is we'll never know. Even if someone had the cash to fund a thorough investigation, the results would be expressed in some percentage of likelihood.

We can still learn a lot about ourselves and the circumstances regarding OUR riding. We can choose to ignore it, too. There are as many ways of dealing with the loss as there are individuals reading these posts.

I feel terrible for Ollie's family and friends, including fastflee. I'm not trying to heap blame on Ollie, either. It's a damn, DAMN shame he and all the others before (and those to come) are lost to this sport we enjoy.

But we cannot lose sight of the fact that a LOT of the time we can do more to make each and every ride more survivable, yet still fun, by doing things like slowing down a little, paying closer attention to our equipment and respecting the variables that aren't in our control.

Old riders don't get to be that way by sheer luck.
Click to expand...

Old riders ride Goldwings with full roll cages, training wheels, and airbags.:teeth
 
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