Stoner to Honda

[kevin 714]

jo is easilly the most rational person here today lol

rossi is staying at yam and the italian journalists are full on liars. both pretty much right on statements

 

[Bowling4Bikes]

True.. And I am a stoner fan, but it seems like he crashes at the worst times.. He must have the record for crashes while leading..

If because it seems he's crashing at worst times than Pedrosa, IMO it's because he's in a position to win more often than Dani...

 

[Teddy]

I think it is just easy to reflect on his crash fest season the last year on the Honda with his current results. That was the big question when he went to Ducati....if he could keep the rubber down. For the most part, he has lived down the image he created on the white Honda.....human nauture for us to automatically click back to that mindset now that he has crashed 2 out of 3 races this season. He does not deserve the "crasher" reputation as much now, but we are automatically reminded of the past and that past makes it easier to apply the label.

My

 

[JO EBRMC]

If because it seems he's crashing at worst times than Pedrosa, IMO it's because he's in a position to win more often than Dani...

Exactly. It is a lot harder to rack up crashes while leading if you aren't leading very often.

 

[TTTom]

...The other facet is that MotoGP has a real following in Spain and Italy and gets big coverage; in most English-speaking countries and especially in the U.S., it's right up there with badminton and fencing. So the amount of hot air is proportional to the amount of attention it gets...

So these stories are basically the Spanish-Italian equivalent of "Delonte West nailed Lebron James's mom"???

 

[JO EBRMC]

Good link, thanks. Still not sure if it's a question of Italian rumor-mongering or just a result of a lot more writing on the subject. When it comes to yellow journalism, though, I don't think Rupert Murdoch and Roger Ailes are Italian.

Think about it this way: Silvio Berlusconi Owns most of the Italian media. He is also the Prime Minister. He is also a criminal. Murdoch is an ass but he doesn't hold a candle to Berlusconi.

 

[Foxhole Atheist]

Think about it this way: Silvio Berlusconi Owns most of the Italian media. He is also the Prime Minister. He is also a criminal. Murdoch is an ass but he doesn't hold a candle to Berlusconi.

True that.

Still, we probably shouldn't look for splinters when we've got planks in our own eyes.

 

[JO EBRMC]

True that.

Still, we probably shouldn't look for splinters when we've got planks in our own eyes.

I agree with that. I have started only trusting the Lithuanian media. It helps a lot.

Now I just need to learn to read and understand Lithuanian.

 

[kevin 714]

I think it is just easy to reflect on his crash fest season the last year on the Honda with his current results. That was the big question when he went to Ducati....if he could keep the rubber down. For the most part, he has lived down the image he created on the white Honda.....human nauture for us to automatically click back to that mindset now that he has crashed 2 out of 3 races this season. He does not deserve the "crasher" reputation as much now, but we are automatically reminded of the past and that past makes it easier to apply the label.

My

3 out of the last four races actually....

stoner ufortunately will have the crasher stigma as long as he is racing because in 2008 he crashed in three straight handing rossi the title on a platter. whether true or not, it is what it is

 

[House]

Regardless of the stats you use, Stoner has out-performed Pedrosa in nearly every category. The fact is, Stoner is no more of a crasher than Pedrosa and yet, again, he is known as one. Unfairly. Both Pedrosa and Stoner have 11 crashes.

None of these stats mean anything until you start factoring in tires and bikes, and even then only if you can somehow quantify the mysterious Stoner-Ducati marriage. If one of them had been stuck on the Suzuki the last four years would his lesser results then prove he's worse than the other?

 

[Foxhole Atheist]

The fact is, Stoner is no more of a crasher than Pedrosa and yet, again, he is known as one. Unfairly. Both Pedrosa and Stoner have 11 crashes.

When you talk about crashes, are you narrowing it down to unforced ones? For example, I would count Pedrosa's Istanbul'06 and Indy'09, but I wouldn't count his Instanbul'07 and Misano'07 when he was taken out by other riders.

Anyway, by that reckoning, Stoner has 11 crashes to Pedrosa's 9 in MotoGP, but I'm sure Pedrosa would happily switch places for Stoner's overall results in MotoGP.

 

[TTTom]

oh this is getting boring.

lets talk about how Puig continues for find ways to be creepy, with that +0.1 pit board they put out.

Apparently the love in the Honda camp extends to the mechanics. Right after the race the BBC coverage caught Dovi's crew delightedly telling him "Yes, Nicky passed him too!'

 

[Aluisious]

oh this is getting boring.

lets talk about how Puig continues for find ways to be creepy, with that +0.1 pit board they put out.

I don't understand what you mean about that board.

 

[gOtChA_RC-51]

If Rossi is going to go to Ducati, he better go next year in 2011 so he gets used to the new team, cause in 2012, nearly everybody will have new bikes since they are going back to 1000cc's......

 

[JO EBRMC]

None of these stats mean anything until you start factoring in tires and bikes, and even then only if you can somehow quantify the mysterious Stoner-Ducati marriage. If one of them had been stuck on the Suzuki the last four years would his lesser results then prove he's worse than the other?

That is a really pointless path to go down and I'm not really sure what you are getting at. Pedrosa had more resources thrown at his effort than Ducati has ever seen and yet, he still came up short.

We could start conjecturing about what would have happened if rider X had been on bike Y but I don't really see the point. We could also start getting into whether Stoner's results on the Ducati are caused by magical fairies , but again, I'm not seeing the point. The fact is, both were on factory rides; Pedrosa with a factory that had been dominating the championship and Stoner with a factory that had never one the title.

If Rossi is going to go to Ducati, he better go next year in 2011 so he gets used to the new team, cause in 2012, nearly everybody will have new bikes since they are going back to 1000cc's......

I am willing to bet the no one will be on new bikes in 2012 since there is no reason for any of the factories to switch from the 800s. Based on the rules as proposed now, they gain nothing.

Suzuki might switch because they have nothing to lose but I know for certain Honda and Yamaha won't and despite rumblings to the contrary, I have no idea why Ducati would switch.

 

[kevin 714]

im turning into a huge jo ebmrc fan

 

[House]

We could start conjecturing about what would have happened if rider X had been on bike Y but I don't really see the point. We could also start getting into whether Stoner's results on the Ducati are caused by magical fairies , but again, I'm not seeing the point. The fact is, both were on factory rides; Pedrosa with a factory that had been dominating the championship and Stoner with a factory that had never one the title.

By that logic you can't give Rossi much credit for winning the 01-03 championships, since he was riding for the HRC factory team that had won 6 of the previous 7 championships. And his 2004 championship isn't nearly as notable as many people claim because he was on a factory team, and on top of that still had his guys. And his blowout loss to Stoner in 2007 can't be excused, because he still was on that factory team, and stuff like tires really doesn't matter (since Pedrosa isn't granted that excuse).

I am willing to bet the no one will be on new bikes in 2012 since there is no reason for any of the factories to switch from the 800s. Based on the rules as proposed now, they gain nothing.

Suzuki might switch because they have nothing to lose but I know for certain Honda and Yamaha won't and despite rumblings to the contrary, I have no idea why Ducati would switch.

So how is it that you can claim going to 1000cc won't give any advantage? It may be true that the bore limitation and fuel restrictions will limit peak horsepower to a point it's not materially greater than the 800s, but that doesn't necessarily apply to low-end torque, and that could make all the difference. Look at Ducati in WSB over the last 20 years.

My read is that the factories really don't want to spend the money to build 1000s right now, but that's not the same as them believing that they won't be faster. If they collude, all stick together, then the only new bikes might be non-factory 1000s built from a street foundation, and those won't win anything, and they can amortize the 800s for another year or two. Suzuki does seem to be the wildcard, because they really have nothing to gain by staying the course as a chronic loser on the 800; I suppose someone like Kawasaki or Aprilia might jump in and shake it up as well.

 

[nazgulnarsil]

would be so awesome to see aprilia jump in the game. but i fear the R&D dollars to have a competitive factory team probably isn't there.

 

[JO EBRMC]

By that logic you can't give Rossi much credit for winning the 01-03 championships, since he was riding for the HRC factory team that had won 6 of the previous 7 championships. And his 2004 championship isn't nearly as notable as many people claim because he was on a factory team, and on top of that still had his guys. And his blowout loss to Stoner in 2007 can't be excused, because he still was on that factory team, and stuff like tires really doesn't matter (since Pedrosa isn't granted that excuse).

You didn't really read my post carefully. My point was that Pedrosa, while perhaps not getting the treatment Rossi did, still had the full factory effort behind him and so disregarding the stats is just silly. The stats require context to be information otherwise it is just data. However, I think the context for the stats I showed is pretty well set and I don't think that there is any reason they can't stand on their own. Introducing what-ifs based on a total lack of information such as the reasons for the Stoner/Ducati performance is wasted effort since we cannot possibly understand the causes.

So how is it that you can claim going to 1000cc won't give any advantage? It may be true that the bore limitation and fuel restrictions will limit peak horsepower to a point it's not materially greater than the 800s, but that doesn't necessarily apply to low-end torque, and that could make all the difference. Look at Ducati in WSB over the last 20 years.

My read is that the factories really don't want to spend the money to build 1000s right now, but that's not the same as them believing that they won't be faster. If they collude, all stick together, then the only new bikes might be non-factory 1000s built from a street foundation, and those won't win anything, and they can amortize the 800s for another year or two. Suzuki does seem to be the wildcard, because they really have nothing to gain by staying the course as a chronic loser on the 800; I suppose someone like Kawasaki or Aprilia might jump in and shake it up as well.

House, with the bore limits, a 1000cc bike won't be able to rev high enough to produce any real power gains. Theoretically, you could get more torque at the low end but you could do the same with the 800s. Fuel limits are the determining factor here. You cannot just magically make horsepower appear when you are already at the knife edge of the fuel consumption.

 

[kevin 714]

the fallacy that 1000s is going to make the racing "beter" always makes me laugh