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This is why ABS haters are wrong

Z3n

Z3n

Squid.
Joined
Feb 3, 2005
Location
Oakland, CA
Moto(s)
help me prove my commitment to Sparkle Motion.
How much traction do those grates across the Bay Bridge have?

[youtube]kHGrGOWLB5g[/youtube]

This is why all the people who say "ABS is a crutch" are wrong. There is no conceivable way that any sane rider would be trying that normally...unless you knew that you had an electronic safety that would make it effectively impossible for you to crash while doing that sort of test. I was pulling the rear wheel off the ground on the brakes there, and you can hear the tire howl as it approaches the limits of traction on the grate.

I never actually even cycled the ABS doing this testing - there was enough traction available that it wasn't needed. But ABS allows me to prove that in an incredibly low risk fashion.

Also, this goes double for traction control. When you can spin up the rear in a very low risk environment, you much more rapidly get comfortable with the limits of rear wheel traction.

ABS and TC will allow you to exploit the limits of performance in a way that no rider with out it can. You can whine about scotts dampers and the riding experience, but at the end of the day, if you don't have it, not only are you going slower, you have less access to the performance of your bike, meaning situations that would be completely safe and reasonable for an ABS and TC equipped bike could be completely unsafe for a bike without it.

If you want stats:
The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) conducted a study on the effectiveness of ABS for motorcycles and came to the conclusion that motorcycles above 250cc equipped with ABS are 37 percent less likely to be involved in fatal crashes and a study of the Swedish Road Administration came to the conclusion that 48 percent of all severe and fatal motorcycle accidents above 125cc could be avoided due to motorcycle ABS.
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Our new electronic overlords are here and they are good, get on board, start demanding it as standard on bikes, and let's save some lives.
 
Ha ha, nice. :thumbup
i agree but you can't convince some folks they don't have super human skills.:rolleyes
 
Z3n said:
How much traction do those grates across the Bay Bridge have?
There is no conceivable way that any sane rider would be trying that normally
Click to expand...
You can stop right there. You WIN! No SANE rider would be doing that.
 
I agree completely with what you said about the ABS and TC. They should be standard on new bikes.
I am shocked that you would try that on the Bay bridge with no left shoulder and with the bridge traffic. Was there anyone following you?
 
Obviously you are aiming this at Lou I'm sure he will respond at any second now. As usual people focus too much on how he says things rather than the underlying message. He has always preached that it is the primary responsibility of the rider to learn and understand the limits and abilities of their motorcycle. While I am a proponent for aids such as tc and abs, I can also understand his point.

I can't watch your video but from what you wrote it kind of proves his point as well as yours. How do you teach someone not to be ham fisted in shitty conditions? Experience... What happens when you have to panic brake on a bridge grate? Thank god for advances on abs.

REally I think the future of riding and riding well is a combo of you and lou's perspectives. Electronic aids are excellent tools, but the rider needs to understand the dynamics and physics of traction in order to fully exploit his tools.
 
See this is what I don't get - there are supposed to be disadvantages to ABS (or so I have been led to believe). What are they, and how are they not legitimate? Please explain to this noob. :laughing
 
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Z3n said:
s enough traction available that it wasn't needed. But ABS allows me to prove that in an incredibly low risk fashion.

Also, this goes double for traction control. When you can spin up the rear in a very low risk environment, you much more rapidly get comfortable with the limits of rear wheel traction.

ABS and TC will allow you to exploit the limits of performance in a way that no rider with out it can. You can whine about scotts dampers and the riding experience, but at the end of the day, if you don't have it, not only are you going slower, you have less access to the performance of your bike, meaning situations that would be completely safe and reasonable for an ABS and TC equipped bike could be completely unsafe for a bike without it.

If you want stats:


Our new electronic overlords are here and they are good, get on board, start demanding it as standard on bikes, and let's save some lives.
Click to expand...

And that's why they use ABS on MotoGP bikes! o wait, snap.
 
Would ABS really prevent you from going down? If you're braking and the tire doesn't have traction, even if you don't lock the brakes you could still wash out the front right? Or wrong?
 
and next thing you know, every rider has electronically assisted hailwood-level braking/traction skills. that should save a lot of lives :laughing

:nchantr
 
ABS is cool but by the time I remember I'm riding a bike with ABS, it's too late to change my technique.

Edit: Between, ABS front only, ABS both ends, traction control, GP shift, righthand shift, pushbutton shift, no shift, linked brakes, auto trans, left hand brake. It's hard keeping it all straight. I do but some standardization would be nice.
 
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I'm all for ABS. Agreed with OP.

However, I do think ABS is what prevents stoppies on my Panigale. Oh, I'm sure there's a setting somewhere I can play with, I think just haven't found the right combination yet.

Brain says use the 599 for that and so far it's winning. Roll, lift the butt, squeeze, rear is up in no time.
 
jdan007 said:
Would ABS really prevent you from going down? If you're braking and the tire doesn't have traction, even if you don't lock the brakes you could still wash out the front right? Or wrong?
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ABS is supposed to keep the wheels from locking while the bike is moving with the brakes applied- that's it. It is not a panacea and it is no guarantee of preventing a crash. That braking power still requires a suitable surface with enough traction to utilize. Conditions trump technology in the end. I've done crash estimates on ABS equipped bikes. If the tires have less than the necessary traction needed, ABS might reduce the potential for a crash but it will never eliminate it. We could argue endlessly about this. The truth is a rider is much better off if they master the fine art of how to fully and completely read, evaluate and fully understand road conditions for available traction first before bypassing this vital skill and deluding themselves that ABS will save the day, every day.

You want to really save some lives? Try requiring much, MUCH better rider training first. Duh.
 
jdan007 said:
Would ABS really prevent you from going down? If you're braking and the tire doesn't have traction, even if you don't lock the brakes you could still wash out the front right? Or wrong?
Click to expand...

If one grabs too much front brake, the tire patch not loaded properly, and one is turning, then yes, ABS would not prevent one from going down. On the other hand, I do not believe ABS is meant to prevent that. It is meant to prevent skidding due to locking up of the brake, not due to the loss of traction from the loss of contact patch.
 
When I wore my salesguy hat at the BMW shop, people would ask about it, quote the magazines when they would prove that with practice they could stop faster with ABS turned off.
My usual comment was that yes, with practice you probably could beat the sensors and the computer, but in the real world, when Mom pulls the minivan out in front of you, you don't get several tries. You get one.
I used to keep a copy of the original CHP magazine back when they first got the RT reporting that now that they had ABS, they had to change the training at the Academy to eliminate the old "lay it down" technique and teach the Officers to grab and stomp the bejeejus out of the brakes and concentrate on steering around the obstical to lessen or avoid an impact.
There was also an article on the first major accident of a Motor on a BMW. It was in Riverside I think. A DUI pulled an illegal u-turn in front of the bike and the Motor t-boned the pickup. The Officer flew up and over the truck and flew a long way just tagging his helmet on the cab of the truck.
He just had time to jam the brakes before impact.
Part of it was funny because everyone was in a panic trying to get the Officer to stay down and wait for help. He had sprung to his feet and was headed back to get a chunk of the DUI.
The RT (and the other Telelever models) has some impressive design elements. In a front ender, the front suspension is supposed to crumple, the faring cut-outs force the knees/legs to lift the rider up and over the motorcycle, the handlebars and windshield are designed to break away.
Everything worked as it should and the Officer had minor injuries. The bike was "imbedded" into the truck like the pictures we've all seen.
The article explained how the bike was supposed to work, how the ABS had reduced accidents and cut workmans claims cost by a bunch.
After the BMW's proved themselves , they re-wrote the bid spec so that ALL future Motors Must have ABS.
The negative on early or unsophisticated ABS is that on uneven surfaces, ripples, poor pavement, under heavy braking, the ABS can cause the bike to "increase speed" slightly as the ABS cycles. Newer versions are better.
My R1100RT, circa 1999 at a trackday at B/W going into the Toyota hairpin clockwise, I can jam the front brake on prior to entry, hit the ripples and the ABS will engage-disengage quickly so that the bike will seem to speed up as it cycles. Once you get past the ripples, it squats right down. The newer R1150 is better, the R1200, even more seamless, maybe not 100%.
No matter what brand ABS, it's suggested you go out and practice with it and play with it a bit to see what it does and to learn to NOT lift off the brakes. Let it do it's job.
 
ABS is great stuff on the street. However a well honed set of riding skills is better stuff. No matter how good your system is, if your skills allow you to keep out of the situation or minimize it, you've won. If they don't, well, you're probably fucked anyway.

Tharkûn said:
What those riders face, on the track, is groomed and prepped, and no match, for the dangers and unknown, of the street
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Not really. You've obviously never ridden the old Sears Point or Streets of Willow. At Streets you find orange cones in 8 inch deep potholes on the race line exiting a blind corner. And racers are run in the rain all the time. What you can change for the better is your ability to anticipate, avoid, and mitigate dangerous circumstance. Believing ABS will save your ass is actually a pretty bad idea.
 
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You were going in a straight line over a 3 foot metal section. Is that really a good test?

ABS is amazing when you're not paying attention, but it often gets in my way when riding, extending braking distances and messing up my turns. That's why I usually turn it off for anything but commuting.
 
afm199 said:
ABS is great stuff on the street. However a well honed set of riding skills is better stuff. No matter how good your system is, if your skills allow you to keep out of the situation or minimize it, you've won. If they don't, well, you're probably fucked anyway.
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I agree but it's apples and apple pie. Having the riding intelligence to not get yourself into an 'emergency braking' situation is great and should be the number one goal, but not everything is avoidable.
 
kuksul08 said:
You were going in a straight line over a 3 foot metal section. Is that really a good test?

ABS is amazing when you're not paying attention, but it often gets in my way when riding, extending braking distances and messing up my turns. That's why I usually turn it off for anything but commuting.
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What bike? Sometimes I can't get it to engage even if I try. Not sure why you're threshold braking on the street anyway, but that's neither here nor there
 
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