This is why ABS haters are wrong

[aram]

What those riders face, on the track, is groomed and prepped, and no match, for the dangers and unknown, of the street

Quiet Louie!

What bike? Sometimes I can't get it to engage even if I try. Not sure why you're threshold braking on the street anyway, but that's neither here nor there

He goes to Louie's school of moto riding? Keeps a set of tire warmers on the bike to get ready for trips to Alice's?

 

[asthmodeus]

abs
pvc
vinyl
tygon
copper
black iron


all good for their intended purpose

uhmwpe, ftw

 

[Z3n]

Obviously you are aiming this at Lou I'm sure he will respond at any second now. As usual people focus too much on how he says things rather than the underlying message. He has always preached that it is the primary responsibility of the rider to learn and understand the limits and abilities of their motorcycle. While I am a proponent for aids such as tc and abs, I can also understand his point.

I can't watch your video but from what you wrote it kind of proves his point as well as yours. How do you teach someone not to be ham fisted in shitty conditions? Experience... What happens when you have to panic brake on a bridge grate? Thank god for advances on abs.

REally I think the future of riding and riding well is a combo of you and lou's perspectives. Electronic aids are excellent tools, but the rider needs to understand the dynamics and physics of traction in order to fully exploit his tools.

Here's the thing (as I proved to myself when I took the 1290 to the track as well...), with ABS and TC, it's vastly easier to learn to understand the dynamics and physics of traction in order to build your repertoire of tools. ABS and TC lessens the harshness of the process of gaining experience. On top of that, it doesn't require any skill on the part of the rider to unlock a massive amount of braking power or acceleration - the bike compensates for poor inputs. Riders who are going to learn will learn from that experience, those that don't will still be safer than they would be on a bike without electronic aids, as they won't crash when they lock the brakes because they can't. They're not a replacement for rider skill, but again - they reduce the consequences of mistakes. Just like gear does.

See this is what I don't get - there are supposed to be disadvantages to ABS (or so I have been led to believe). What are they, and how are they not legitimate? Please explain to this noob.

On some older ABS systems, if you hit a bump while hard on the brakes, the ABS system will freewheel for a moment as it releases the brakes to prevent lockup but then won't re-engage quite quickly enough, causing an increase in braking distance. If you didn't have ABS, the wheel would lock for a tiny, likely undetectable moment, but would likely keep rolling as finish going over the bump.

Would ABS really prevent you from going down? If you're braking and the tire doesn't have traction, even if you don't lock the brakes you could still wash out the front right? Or wrong?

Yes, in the vast majority of situations, ABS would prevent you from going down. A situation where there is not enough traction to keep the wheel tracking without additional load from the brakes is very, very uncommon, and pretty much entirely limited to something like oil on the road. There is also KTM's new Motorcycle Stability Control system (1190 Adventure only at the moment), which will also modulate the brakes to maintain traction while you are leaned over.

http://www.ktm.com/gb/news-events/n...-1190-adventures-model-year.html#.U7yqwai_LyU

I'm hoping they'll issue a retrofit to it for the 1290s as well - I very nearly bought an 1190 for that feature alone.

If one grabs too much front brake, the tire patch not loaded properly, and one is turning, then yes, ABS would not prevent one from going down. On the other hand, I do not believe ABS is meant to prevent that. It is meant to prevent skidding due to locking up of the brake, not due to the loss of traction from the loss of contact patch.

It would still cycle as you locked the front - if it cycled fast enough to unlock it and get it spinning again before it was so far out of line you were guaranteed a crash is open to debate, and not something I'd be interested in trying, unless I was on an MSC bike.

You were going in a straight line over a 3 foot metal section. Is that really a good test?

ABS is amazing when you're not paying attention, but it often gets in my way when riding, extending braking distances and messing up my turns. That's why I usually turn it off for anything but commuting.

Yes, it's pretty much the perfect test for the aspect of ABS that caused the most issues - freewheeling. Older ABS systems will freewheel as traction increases rapidly because it cannot react to the increase in traction fast enough, as it's functionally simpler to release a brake than to re-engage it with respect to available traction.

With some quick napkin math, ~65 mph is approximately 100 feet per second, so that means that the ABS has to react to a loss of traction that last .03 seconds without significant freewheel effect, likely regaining max traction within .05 or .1 of a second, given that when I have cycled the ABS on modern KTMs in similar situations, it never allows the front to bounce - only to raise. Older systems would bounce the front end as the ABS failed to accurately calculate available traction, and cycled the braking pressure looking for the limit of available traction.

Additionally, I find these comments really interesting, because I took my 1290 to Thunderhill and ran it in both ABS modes with minimal issues - once I switched to supermoto mode to allow for backing it in, I only cycled the ABS once, and that's when I would have rolled a stoppie into T14. As it was, the level pulsed gently and I didn't have to worry about blowing my marker. If you're regularly cycling the ABS during street use, something is seriously wrong with either your ABS system or your riding.

 

[Z3n]

I agree completely with what you said about the ABS and TC. They should be standard on new bikes.
I am shocked that you would try that on the Bay bridge with no left shoulder and with the bridge traffic. Was there anyone following you?

I verified that I had plenty of space behind me so I wasn't brake checking anyone. But honestly, I've played with the ABS enough to know what would happen. If I overrode the available traction, the lever would go fuzzy for a moment, the bars wouldn't so much as twitch, and the bike would continue rolling as if nothing had happened.

I did something far more sketchy recently, which is approached a muni track at the worst possible angle (super shallow) while on the brakes and the bars didn't even twitch, the bike just smoothly released the brakes basically completely. There is effectively no traction on those tracks, unlike the grates on the bay bridge. I've been trying to find a place where the ABS fails me, and I haven't been able to find it yet...it is really, really, REALLY good.

Next test is going to be offroad - put it in supermoto mode (as that is the appropriate mode for that sort of situation) and see how it comes to a stop.

 

[kurth83]

ABS is ... no guarantee of preventing a crash.

... The truth is a rider is much better off if they master the fine art of how to fully and completely read, evaluate and fully understand road conditions for available traction first before bypassing this vital skill and deluding themselves that ABS will save the day, every day.

Two bits of false logic there:

Bit 1:
I don't "rely" on ABS any more than I "rely" on my helmet, or my other safety gear. Call them a crutch if you want, but I am not buying that ridiculous argument.

Same for ABS, ABS activations are learning experiences (how many of us ABS advocates have said that again, and again), and yet still we hear the tired canard "don't rely on ABS, it makes you a lesser rider" over and over again. None of us that I know of advocate exchanging improved riding skills for ABS. It misrepresents our position to say that we do. We advocate both.

Bit 2: no guarantee? 40% reduction in chances is not a guarantee, nobody ever said it was, so you are misrepresenting our position again. But 40% is 40%, and yes we are trusting ABS to give us 40%. Helmets cut fatalities by half, not a guarantee at all, but yes, we are trusting helmets to reduce our chances of dying, same argument, same logic.

When you have to use straw-man attacks to prove your point, you concede the argument.

 

[Z3n]

ABS is supposed to keep the wheels from locking while the bike is moving with the brakes applied- that's it. It is not a panacea and it is no guarantee of preventing a crash. That braking power still requires a suitable surface with enough traction to utilize. Conditions trump technology in the end. I've done crash estimates on ABS equipped bikes. If the tires have less than the necessary traction needed, ABS might reduce the potential for a crash but it will never eliminate it. We could argue endlessly about this. The truth is a rider is much better off if they master the fine art of how to fully and completely read, evaluate and fully understand road conditions for available traction first before bypassing this vital skill and deluding themselves that ABS will save the day, every day.

You want to really save some lives? Try requiring much, MUCH better rider training first. Duh.

I'm usually all for riding training, but in studies overseas, they have discovered heavily diminishing returns between additional rider training and lower fatal rates - a large percentage of accidents occur due to coming into a corner too hot or washing out the front on the brakes, which is something that training doesn't fix in the moment, but ABS can - thusly the stats referenced in the OP. At the end of the day, it's not an either/or thing, we're not going to get higher levels of training in the US, so we may as well work in making bikes safer in other ways.

Edit: kurth83 raises some other excellent points.

 

[Marcoose]

It's not so much as ABS hate, but rather sheer hubris. They're convinced their and J6P's skills are superior than top-shelf research and technology. That's why they ride drum brake motorbikes, tyres from WWII, beanie helmets (if helmet at all), and a kerosene lamp for headlight. Then they watch paid actors perform mock emergency braking with known braking conditions, and that is, a carefully selected take for distribution. And that becomes gospel.

 

[Lunch Box]

I am a fan of ABS for street bikes (though I have yet to own one that is so equipped). Where I don't like it is track/offroad. Considering that I take all of my bikes offroad, I don't anticipate owning a bike with ABS any time soon. Some of the manufacturers are making it easier to disable, which is nice.

As others have said, it shouldn't be relied upon. It should be there to bail (primarily inexperienced) riders out in oh shit moments.

 

[Z3n]

I am a fan of ABS for street bikes (though I have yet to own one that is so equipped). Where I don't like it is track/offroad. Considering that I take all of my bikes offroad, I don't anticipate owning a bike with ABS any time soon. Some of the manufacturers are making it easier to disable, which is nice.

As others have said, it shouldn't be relied upon. It should be there to bail (primarily inexperienced) riders out in oh shit moments.

Literally every modern bike has some way of disabling ABS. The vast majority do it through their computer, the rare exceptions require pulling a fuse. For the 1190, you'll want to leave the ABS on but in Offroad mode for offroad usage, it will outbrake a pro rider from 60mph.

http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/01/17/off-road-braking-test-pro-level-off-road-racer-against-ktm-abs/

tl;dr:

 

[Marcoose]

...it shouldn't be relied upon. It should be there to bail...

But in case of bail, it should be relied upon, right? Because that's the only time ABS is activated. Everyday braking, even in mildly adverse conditions, the ABS very, very rarely comes on, bike or car.

 

[afm199]

I am a fan of ABS for street bikes (though I have yet to own one that is so equipped). Where I don't like it is track/offroad. Considering that I take all of my bikes offroad, I don't anticipate owning a bike with ABS any time soon. Some of the manufacturers are making it easier to disable, which is nice.

As others have said, it shouldn't be relied upon. It should be there to bail (primarily inexperienced) riders out in oh shit moments.

This. The 40% reduction in crashes can well be due to 40% of riders being really shitty riders and the ABS saves their ass. It doesn't mean anything else. I wouldn't mind having it on my Tuono. However, I'd much rather have the skills I have to survive than ABS and no skills.

It's really a null arguments. Good riders don't benefit from ABS as much, if at all, as marginal and poor ones do. What is the logical conclusion? Well, depend on ABS to save your bacon, or learn skills to save your bacon. I don't see anyone here saying "ABS is dangerous and sucks." I see quite a few saying: "ABS has a place, as do skills."

Kinda like electric bikes. I'd love to have one but ain't paying for one.

 

[Z3n]

This. The 40% reduction in crashes can well be due to 40% of riders being really shitty riders and the ABS saves their ass. It doesn't mean anything else. I wouldn't mind having it on my Tuono. However, I'd much rather have the skills I have to survive than ABS and no skills.

It's really a null arguments. Good riders don't benefit from ABS much, if at all, as marginal and poor ones do. What is the logical conclusion? Well, depend on ABS to save your bacon, or learn skills to save your bacon.

I dunno, I'm pretty sure my ABS has paid for itself in entertainment on BARF.

I'd just say good riders benefit from it if they're all weather riders - part of the ABS requirement for me was due to all weather commuting.

 

[Tharkûn]

This. The 40% reduction in crashes can well be due to 40% of riders being really shitty riders and the ABS saves their ass. It doesn't mean anything else. I wouldn't mind having it on my Tuono. However, I'd much rather have the skills I have to survive than ABS and no skills.

It's really a null arguments. Good riders don't benefit from ABS as much, if at all, as marginal and poor ones do. What is the logical conclusion? Well, depend on ABS to save your bacon, or learn skills to save your bacon. I don't see anyone here saying "ABS is dangerous and sucks." I see quite a few saying: "ABS has a place, as do skills."

Kinda like electric bikes. I'd love to have one but ain't paying for one.

It takes serious seat time to get to the point that you could come close to matching (and still be unable to beat) an ABS system in poor conditions.

This isn't a black and white 'you're either good enough to not need it or you suck and you depend on electronics for everything'. There is a large middle ground of skilled riders who either made a simple mistake, or had to unexpectedly go hard to the brakes on less than perfect conditions and ABS avoided a quite possible collision situation.

 

[afm199]

It takes serious seat time to get to the point that you could come close to matching (and still be unable to beat) an ABS system in poor conditions.

This isn't a black and white 'you're either good enough to not need it or you suck and you depend on electronics for everything'. There is a large middle ground of skilled riders who either made a simple mistake, or had to unexpectedly go hard to the brakes on less than perfect conditions and ABS avoided a quite possible collision situation.

Sure, on an upright bike. The second you are turning in a corner the dynamics change totally.

I don't state that you're either good enough or a squid. I state that the desirable thing is to acquire skills.

 

[asthmodeus]

It's not so much as ABS hate, but rather sheer hubris. They're convinced their and J6P's skills are superior than top-shelf research and technology. That's why they ride drum brake motorbikes, tyres from WWII, beanie helmets (if helmet at all), and a kerosene lamp for headlight. Then they watch paid actors perform mock emergency braking with known braking conditions, and that is, a carefully selected take for distribution. And that becomes gospel.

misconception. acetylene/carbide lamps were much more popular and effective for auto/moto illumination.

 

[Marcoose]

Good riders don't benefit from ABS as much, if at all...

What's rational behind this? Those without front-end braking accidents are good riders, and all that crashed are bad riders?

 

[afm199]

What's rational behind this? Those without front-end braking accidents are good riders, and all that crashed are bad riders?

No, the good riders don't eat Swiss Cheese and the bad riders do.

 

[ilikefood]

Here's the thing (as I proved to myself when I took the 1290 to the track as well...), with ABS and TC, it's vastly easier to learn to understand the dynamics and physics of traction in order to build your repertoire of tools. ABS and TC lessens the harshness of the process of gaining experience. On top of that, it doesn't require any skill on the part of the rider to unlock a massive amount of braking power or acceleration - the bike compensates for poor inputs.

...until the rider rides a bike that doesn't have electronic babysitters and highsides himself into the next ZIP code.

 

[Tharkûn]

...until the rider rides a bike that doesn't have electronic babysitters and highsides himself into the next ZIP code.

I literally hop off my 300 two stroke dirt bike in the morning and onto my Harley for work at noon, it's not a big deal

 

[boney]

I ride year round in all weather. I cannot stop faster than ABS in shitty conditions and neither can you.

Any of you.


Now, I don't ride in a manner in shitty conditions where I'm going to "need" it but let's all be real and admit that once or twice we've been taken by surprise by something or someone out there on the road (if you haven't, you're lying). That's what ABS is for, when that happens and it's shitty out there.