Took a test ride on a Zero DS electric bike

[minh]

I'd love to get an emoto.... in 5 years. Can't wait!

 

[U26A1]

Great, someone's got to be buying them, but what type of people are these?

Are you one of those earlier adopters who must be the first on the block to own a new product? Do you work for them? Or, do you have so much disposable income that cost isn't an issue? I'm curious about how you justified/rationalizez the purchase of a new $16k electric bike to see if I can relate.

Haha I don't know that I'll have very good reasons, but here goes:

No, I'm not typically a super early adopter of things. I still have my iphone 4S, for example. I don't work for Brammo. I'm not a zillionaire -- I am a software engineer and the sum total of my responsibilities include my cat, so do I make enough money to be sticking some in a savings every month.

The cost for me is a funny thing. This bike is the single most expensive thing I've ever purchased in my life. My car is a 2000 Prelude (that I need to sell, because I never drive it anymore) that I bought used. All the motorcycles I've owned have been sub-$5k. I'd never really gone out and bought something really hilariously stupid before -- and in the grand scheme of things, a vehicle that costs less than a new Civic is not terribly irresponsible.

I will try to walk through the process that led up to purchase:

• I have an old high school friend who lives in Ashland, OR. He of course had a rock climbing buddy who worked at Brammo (because everybody in Ashland is outdoorsy as hell). I was in town visiting and had never heard of them, so we swung by the factory. Got an informal tour, met a few folks there (who were all awesome moto-nerds), saw the production line, etc before going to lunch.
• Then, this video is released. This video proceeds to cause something to break in my brain, and I spend a couple weeks obsessing over it. In particular, the first bit with the noise. Dear god, the noise.
• I then learn everything I can about the bike online, and find out Scuderia is getting a demo bike. I talk to Don and schedule a test ride, and holy mother of god. I did NOT put down a deposit on the spot -- I went home and thought about it and agonized for a few days, but I couldn't escape it. It was basically the coolest thing I'd ever ridden, ever. Also, it made the noise.
• I put down a deposit to get in line for preorder. I went for the R model mainly because of the suspension bits and nice components -- a friend of mine pointed out that if I got the non-R, I'd probably turn around and want to put all that stuff on there anyways . . . and imagine finding aftermarket stuff for a goddamn Brammo.
• Aaaand I ended up getting mine in January of this year. It was supposed to be March, but a few people in front of me backed out.

Since then, I've put 9k on it, I've ridden it nearly every day, I've taken it to the track -- in fact, I literally started track riding BECAUSE of owning this bike. I first did the Refuel event at Laguna Seca just because I thought it'd be awesome; it broke my brain some more and made me want to do more trackdays. It's changed how I ride motorcycles, made me meet a lot of awesome folks in the ebike community (haha what little one there is), and I still sometimes turn around and gaze at it for a second while walking away from having parked it.

Basically what it comes down to for me is that yes, it might've been a pretty stupid purchasing decision . . . but it manages to put a huge idiotic toddler grin on my face every time I get on the thing.

 

[Archimedes]

Are you saying it doesn't give you a moto-boner? Do you even LIKE motorcycles?

Way to avoid what I was actually responding to. A brand new HP4 is not the same experience as $5k CBR1k, which I'm guessing you might know if you actually rode one.

You seem to be a master of shifting the argument around so you're constantly comparing apples to oranges, which is pretty typical of the eHype machine these days, as the facts don't paint a very pretty picture at the moment. Maybe someday.

 

[danate]

Way to avoid what I was actually responding to. A brand new HP4 is not the same experience as $5k CBR1k, which I'm guessing you might know if you actually rode one.

You seem to be a master of shifting the argument around so you're constantly comparing apples to oranges, which is pretty typical of the eHype machine these days, as the facts don't paint a very pretty picture at the moment. Maybe someday.

There's certainly a difference between a CBR1k and the HP4, but is it a $25k difference? For some people that's a big yes. For some it's a hell no. Same thing goes for the electric bikes. The thrill of the electric bike (and it seems like it has its own unique thrill) is worth it to some. Considering how many Teslas I see around the peninsula I'm hoping they can get these bikes to the same level.

For me, with a little more range I'd be willing to take the plunge. My commute is about 40 miles each way, but I like to extend it a bit on my ride to or from work. I like the idea of banging out commuter miles on something more efficient.

 

[Gary856]

Haha I don't know that I'll have very good reasons, but here goes:

That's a great insight on the buying decision and the electric bike itself. The video you linked really enhanced it. I can see how the lack of reciprocating mass, noise and vibration would allow more road feel to come thru, which leads to a riding experience that's more pure. I'd love to experience that one day.

 

[ohio]

Way to avoid what I was actually responding to. A brand new HP4 is not the same experience as $5k CBR1k, which I'm guessing you might know if you actually rode one.

I wasn't avoiding it. I was agreeing with you. Maybe you missed the joke.

The HP4 is NOT the same experience as a CBR (and no, I haven't been on the HP4 but I have been on the S1000RR). That's the point. They are pretty much the same function (which is what I wrote), but the difference in experience is worth a $10,000 premium (lets at least compare new to new) to some riders. That $10k is buying you nothing but a bigger smile.

Having ridden the Mission R, I can say it provides an experience that is different and in many ways better than the S1kRR. Having ridden the RedShift, I can say it provides an experience that is different and in almost every way better than a CRFR or a KTM SXF.

Also, I am strict with my facts. I am very careful to use real world data and bracket my projections to timelines and specific markets. Don't accuse me of being shifty because you misread or made false assumptions about my arguments. We're actually in fundamental agreement about most of the case for and against electrics. The major differences in position, as I see them are:
1) You are focused on big sportbikes, which I agree will not be able to compete rationally (range and cost) for about 10 more years. My *only* caveat is that there are some customers that don't need range and cost parity, and will buy these because the ride experience, while brief, is worth it.
2) You are fatigued by 10 years of EV hype, and so assume any positive statement about an EV is one half holes and the other half bullshit. I am pointing out positives, but I am not denying negatives - both are real and how they balance out depends on the market and the customer.

EVs have a fundamental power advantage (power is cheap, small, low maintenance, and smooth) and a fundamental energy disadvantage (range is expensive and heavy). Right now for the segments you care about the negatives outweigh the positives. I think we agree on that. Users with relatively low energy needs (short range, lower speeds) can take advantage of the former. Users with relatively high energy needs (long range, high speed) should stick with gas. Functionally, that line today lands approximately between urban and suburban use cycles. Economically, it lands pretty strictly within urban use cycles.

 

[U26A1]

These two alone would be worth the money for me. When you add in lower local pollution (motorcycles are great for CO2 emissions, due to high gas milage, but per gallon of gas burnt are terribly dirty wrt to NOx, CO, and particulates), and lower carbon footprint it's a no brainer.

I can feel some of you itching when I bring up local pollutants. Sadly it matters. Urban kids have poorer respiratory health than people away from lots of engine exhaust. That shit matters.

Yeah. For the me environmental concerns are secondary things that I really like about buying/owning the the Brammo. Personally, I'd much rather give my dollars to a bunch of crazy Oregonian motorcycle geeks than to the oil industry. That being said, I still ride gas bikes all the time and love them.

The environmental/societal factors do matter, but usually are not enough to make most people (including me) living in a modern society to totally eschew gasoline. Also, riding on explosions is still fucking rad. At the end of the day, I ultimately bought the bike because it is an awesome bike -- however, I very much enjoy the fact that in purchasing it, I got to in some small way help tip the scales in a direction that I happen to agree with.

Also re: nervous yuppies -- you have no idea. One of the greatest unexpected benefits of ebike ownership is pulling up next to Marin Dad plugging in his Prius and seeing the brief, beautiful wave of regretting life decisions wash over his face.

 

[Killroy1999]

This thread confirms that a Electric Motorcycle has significant quality advantages over a regular motorcycle.

-Good throttle response
-Less Vibration
-Better Road Feel
-Easier Turn in
-Low maintenance
-Low Fuel Cost
-Green
-one speed, no clutching (no shifting)

People forget that the multi-gear transmission on any vehicle is just a crutch of a engine that produces practical torque in a narrow RPM range. When optimized, a E Bike can produce fast acceleration with a fast top speed as Tesla has demonstrated.

Of course the, Zero could use some more power to satisfy the people that brag about numbers, and Brammo still has a 6 speed. I think Brammo when with a 6 speed for classic reasons and to better its 0-60 time, they still have some work to do.

Shifting gears is really just wasted time and a huge source of user error. People feel they need to shift a car and motorcycle for traditional reasons, but as a lot of Corvette owners know, average people are actually faster with a good automatic. Less user work load. Multi-gears will only really be user full for squeezing that last drop of power for racing and not needed for regular folks or even track days.

 

[Gabe]

Great, someone's got to be buying them, but what type of people are these?

Are you one of those earlier adopters who must be the first on the block to own a new product? Do you work for them? Or, do you have so much disposable income that cost isn't an issue? I'm curious about how you justified/rationalizez the purchase of a new $16k electric bike to see if I can relate.

Says the guy with $50,000 of motorcycles in his garage...

 

[Killroy1999]

I was surprised to find out that Brammo is going one-speed for racing. Like I said, there is a advantage to accelerating with no interruptions for racing. No missed shifts.

[YOUTUBE]zBT_KPSOZj0[/YOUTUBE]

 

[ircsmith]

Other than the fuel economy savings, please explain to me how that Zero S is the 'best tool' for any job?

For the same money, I can get a bike that's more comfortable, way faster, handles and brakes better, makes a noise that get's me noticed in traffic, and can also do longer rides, track days, and some light touring. I'm confused as to how anyone can argue that the real value proposition for these eBike extends beyond fuel economy.

funny I dont see where I said its the "best tool" for anything. sounds like its not a tool that fits your needs.

 

[Archimedes]

funny I dont see where I said its the "best tool" for anything. sounds like its not a tool that fits your needs.

Funny, I don't see where you're responding to the actual point of my post. Set fuel economy aside and tell me one single type of riding where one of the current crop of eBikes performs better than an IC bike that can be had way cheaper.

 

[m0t0_ryder]

Funny, I don't see where you're responding to the actual point of my post. Set fuel economy aside and tell me one single type of riding where one of the current crop of eBikes performs better than an IC bike that can be had way cheaper.

You only want one?

Off the top I'd give the Zero the torque for a win.
Most know that torque is the "usable" power spec, compared to hp.

But first let's make it an "apples to apples" comparo...

Say the Zero model S compared to the KTM 690 SM

Zero model S
HP - 54 @ 4300rpm
Torque - 68 ft-lb
Curb Weight - 355 lb
Top Speed - 95mph

KTM 690 SM
HP - 66hp @ 7500rpm
Torque - 47.94 @ 6550rpm
Curb Weight - 361 lb
Top Speed - 102.5mph

As you can see they are fairly even on specs... except for that torque figure.
AND... the Zero torque is fully available from initial throttle turn.
The Zero also allows the user to set the power curve via a smartphone wireless connection.

Where the real advantage is when it comes to Maintenance

Zero = tires & brakes

KTM... very frequent oil changes and regular valve adjustments. Also chain maintenance and regular (chain) replacements.

We all know (and for the most part love) our IC bikes.
EV's are the new kid on the block and that kid is an infant to boot.
It is quite common to bully and denigrate the new kid. Especially when they are so young.
Watch out though. As they age they will only get better!

So to answer your query (type of riding) and given the torque advantage to the Zero... I'd say canyon carving may well be a stronger point.
Or even more so... city commuting.

 

[ohio]

Off the top I'd give the Zero the torque for a win.
Zero model S

KTM 690 SM

As you can see they are fairly even on specs... except for that torque figure.
AND... the Zero torque is fully available from initial throttle turn.

Obviously I'm the first to advocate electrics, but the statement above is WAY off and doesn't do the Zero any favors. The Zero has nowhere near the rear wheel torque of the KTM off the line, and you probably wouldn't make the comparo after riding both. Spec sheet racing is flawed to begin with, and it gets even more inaccurate when trying to compare gas to electric.

It isn't until about 3rd or 4th gear on the KTM that the Zero starts to have a torque/acceleration advantage. Yes, all of the Zero's torque is available at 0 RPM, but it's not run through the significant gear reduction that the KTM's is in 1st gear. Think of the Zero as a bike fixed in 3rd gear.

 

[m0t0_ryder]

Thanks for the clarification Marc.
I am new to the EV moto and have not (yet) ridden one.
All I really had to go on was the spec sheet.

Torque still seems like a big plus for the Zero tho as most canyon carving is not from 0 mph but at about the 3'rd 4'th gear equivalent.

So I'd ask you (as an obvious advocate) what type of riding you believe the Zero would excel at?

 

[Gabe]

Funny, I don't see where you're responding to the actual point of my post. Set fuel economy aside and tell me one single type of riding where one of the current crop of eBikes performs better than an IC bike that can be had way cheaper.

Have you ridden "the current crop of ebikes?"

 

[ohio]

So I'd ask you (as an obvious advocate) what type of riding you believe the Zero would excel at?

It *is* fun in the canyons, and it's also a great runabout in urban/suburban settings. It is a REALLY easy bike to ride, and that frees up attention for line choice, traffic awareness, and even just taking it all in cruiser-style. But all of of those things are qualitative. I don't know how the Zero guys would agree with this statement, but to me a better comparison is a bike like the Moto Guzzi V7 which happens to be one of my favorite bikes on the market right now. No one buys the V7 to be the fastest guy out there. You buy it because it provides a unique experience and aesthetic in a relatively lightweight package that is fun and really easy to handle.

I've said it before, but test ride electrics every chance you get. And riding one doesn't mean you've ridden them all, anymore than riding a DRZ means you know what it is to ride a Sportster or a CBR1k.

Edit: Also, the irony of me advocating test rides when our bike still isn't available for them is not lost on me. We're working on it.

 

[Junkie]

You only want one?

Off the top I'd give the Zero the torque for a win.
Most know that torque is the "usable" power spec, compared to hp.

But first let's make it an "apples to apples" comparo...

Say the Zero model S compared to the KTM 690 SM

Zero model S
HP - 54 @ 4300rpm
Torque - 68 ft-lb
Curb Weight - 355 lb
Top Speed - 95mph

KTM 690 SM
HP - 66hp @ 7500rpm
Torque - 47.94 @ 6550rpm
Curb Weight - 361 lb
Top Speed - 102.5mph

As you can see they are fairly even on specs... except for that torque figure.
AND... the Zero torque is fully available from initial throttle turn.
The Zero also allows the user to set the power curve via a smartphone wireless connection.

Where the real advantage is when it comes to Maintenance

Zero = tires & brakes

KTM... very frequent oil changes and regular valve adjustments. Also chain maintenance and regular (chain) replacements.

We all know (and for the most part love) our IC bikes.
EV's are the new kid on the block and that kid is an infant to boot.
It is quite common to bully and denigrate the new kid. Especially when they are so young.
Watch out though. As they age they will only get better!

So to answer your query (type of riding) and given the torque advantage to the Zero... I'd say canyon carving may well be a stronger point.
Or even more so... city commuting.

The KTM 690s aren't particularly high strung. I'm pretty sure the spec is oil at 600ish miles for break in, then at every multiple of 3000 (add a little to those to make them accurate, I'm rounding from 1000km/5000km). It needs a valve check every other oil change, but it's a fairly easy bike to work on.

The 690 is nothing like an SXV.

 

[antidote]

Question. Urban commute is one of the areas the Zero apparently excells in....however is there enough extra battery in order to power heated gear for year round riding without murdering range??

 

[ScottRNelson]

AND... the Zero torque is fully available from initial throttle turn.

I realize that others have already disputed this statement, but...

The Zero that I rode, the one that started this thread, was very weak off the line. Maybe what you meant to say was "the Zero torque is fully available from initial throttle turn once you're up to 20-30 mph.