TROUBLESHOOT:KTM 690 Duke Helll(p)!!!

[WoodsChick]

Oh snap.
What’s with all the oldys moving away n shit?

Well, they both had growing families, and I imagine it's harder to raise them here in the Bay Area.

 

[Roadracer__AL]

@Gabe -- yup. I think I'm at the point where I'm just going to snip all that crap off at the headstock and wire it up like a dirtbike.

@Tami, you're right! There's a big exodus. And I just noticed on ADVrider that Joel (NSFW) moved to Burbank down in Hell-A. It looks like he's on the homeward leg of a pretty sweet moto-camping spin around Oregon. Maybe he'll visit on the way back down the coast.

I love it here, but it's definitely a financial hardship. I can see a point, probably not in the tooooo distant future -- unless we figure out how to earn some passive income like renting rooms... it sure isn't stocks... -- that we won't be able to afford living here.

It's just seriously uphill trying to earn a living here if you're not on the tech gravy train.

 

[somesuch]

any updates?

 

[horsepower]

No, but I am turning focus back in this starting next week and will get a progress report to you.
With Berryessa completely gone my test ride potential is also up in the air.

 

[moto-rama]

I've put a few thousand miles on my '17 690, and I can't get it to stall, unless I use the old skool method of forgetting to put it in first gear, or let out the clutch lever while watching something over on the sidwalk.
I was given a Remus slip on in the box, when I bought the bike, but the P.O. had taken it off for some reason. I didn't get a chance to ask him why, and now he's left the room.
But maybe there was a performance issue with the aftermarket pipe?

 

[W800]

This might seem overly simple, but it can cause engines to run bad, especially after a high speed run.

Is the crankcase vent going into the air box?

On the side of the air box that goes to the throttle body, is it oily at all?

No, but I am turning focus back in this starting next week and will get a progress report to you.
With Berryessa completely gone my test ride potential is also up in the air.

 

[horsepower]

This might seem overly simple, but it can cause engines to run bad, especially after a high speed run.

Is the crankcase vent going into the air box?

On the side of the air box that goes to the throttle body, is it oily at all?

No idea but will add this to the check up list.

 

[horsepower]

Ok FINALLY an update
Rottweiler installed. PC5 still off
Bike still won’t start Now . Turns over but won’t start .
The logic that the shop that did the tune up failed to hook up an electrical and it shimmied off during the test ride is still plausible. I handed them a running bike but now it doesn’t run at all.
But the shop said it’s done with the KTM due to the time it put into it and it won’t pursue any further causes.

So the BIGGEST “ hindsight is 20/20” lesson that I have learned here :
1) only buy a KTM from a KTM expert ( like A Conan or a Stan23) who will have a wealth of info and a meticulous bike.
OR,
2) Go Directly to a KTM specialist and do not waste your time or efforts on anything less. $1500 and a lot of time and energy could have been saved.

Appointment booked for MACH 1.

 

[W800]

No idea but will add this to the check up list.

Cool. Older bikes vented the crankcase to outside. Newer bikes vent it to the airbox for EPA reasons.

Issue with venting to airbox is oil gets into intake and dirties up MAFs on FI bikes. This is why bikes sometimes smell like they are burning oil after high speed run. It's not oil getting past rings. It's crankcase oil sucked into intake.

 

[Tom G]

Ok FINALLY an update
Rottweiler installed. PC5 still off
Bike still won’t start Now . Turns over but won’t start .
The logic that the shop that did the tune up failed to hook up an electrical and it shimmied off during the test ride is still plausible. I handed them a running bike but now it doesn’t run at all.
But the shop said it’s done with the KTM due to the time it put into it and it won’t pursue any further causes.

So the BIGGEST “ hindsight is 20/20” lesson that I have learned here :
1) only buy a KTM from a KTM expert ( like A Conan or a Stan23) who will have a wealth of info and a meticulous bike.
OR,
2) Go Directly to a KTM specialist and do not waste your time or efforts on anything less. $1500 and a lot of time and energy could have been saved.

Appointment booked for MACH 1.

I really wish you luck with that bike. It sounds like throwing good money after bad. Sometimes the problem is very hard to pinpoint. And even harder with growing complexity of the design.

 

[chrisweir.com]

The logic that the shop that did the tune up failed to hook up an electrical and it shimmied off during the test ride is still plausible. I handed them a running bike but now it doesn’t run at all.
But the shop said it’s done with the KTM due to the time it put into it and it won’t pursue any further causes.

This is so disturbing. I suppose I live in a fantasy land where service professionals who claim to be subject matter experts have integrity and stand behind their work.

/rant

Good luck with chasing down the issue correctly. I'm watching this thread hopefully!

 

[W800]

This is so disturbing. I suppose I live in a fantasy land where service professionals who claim to be subject matter experts have integrity and stand behind their work.

/rant

Good luck with chasing down the issue correctly. I'm watching this thread hopefully!

Agreed. Have strange problem with my new Kawasaki that I outlined in another thread. Hoping shop will have the actual expertise to diagnose and fix. I think what's happened these days is at the same time that vehicles have become what are essentially multiple complex computers with motors and wheels attached to them, the job market for people who can use deductive reasoning to solve complex electronic problems has expanded to include some fairly prestigious and high paying professions.

For example, you could make X dollars per hour plus a percentage of shop rate at a bike shop, or you could work for a . com as a CNE.

I think this reality drains talent.

 

[Z3n]

Mechanics have never gotten much respect. It’s just as technically demanding a field these days as anything in the tech fields, but a fraction of the pay and the added bonus of occasionally dropping an engine on your foot.

An old buddy of mine who taught me basically everything I know about engines and motorcycles always said “I got into being a motorcycle mechanic to feed my Jones and I got out of it to feed my family”.

Being a mechanic is useful but not glamorous. And sadly, these days, the folks who would support your useful but not glamorous fields are getting squeezed more and more. Especially in the US, where motorcycles are generally weekend toys, there’s fewer and fewer opportunities to build the basic skills needed to understand how an engine works before you start bolting a bunch of electronics to it and adding complexity that requires a whole additional set of skills to understand how it works, and then more complexity when it integrates with a motor / chassis.

Edit: it’s really a tragedy because the skill of a mechanic is really in deeply understanding how something works in the real world. Design inspires you to ride it again, engineering defines the quality of the experience, but the mechanic makes it work. And the ways that the world will break something are as vast and broad as anything anything a designer might create or an engineer might build.

 

[W800]

Mechanics have never gotten much respect. It’s just as technically demanding a field these days as anything in the tech fields, but a fraction of the pay and the added bonus of occasionally dropping an engine on your foot.

An old buddy of mine who taught me basically everything I know about engines and motorcycles always said “I got into being a motorcycle mechanic to feed my Jones and I got out of it to feed my family”.

Being a mechanic is useful but not glamorous. And sadly, these days, the folks who would support your useful but not glamorous fields are getting squeezed more and more. Especially in the US, where motorcycles are generally weekend toys, there’s fewer and fewer opportunities to build the basic skills needed to understand how an engine works before you start bolting a bunch of electronics to it and adding complexity that requires a whole additional set of skills to understand how it works, and then more complexity when it integrates with a motor / chassis.

Edit: it’s really a tragedy because the skill of a mechanic is really in deeply understanding how something works in the real world. Design inspires you to ride it again, engineering defines the quality of the experience, but the mechanic makes it work. And the ways that the world will break something are as vast and broad as anything anything a designer might create or an engineer might build.

I don't disagree. It's part of a larger cultural shift. When I grew up, I remember that mechanical skill was just something that many boys picked up from their fathers. Not trying to be sexist. It's just the way things were back then. Most everyone I knew wrenched their own cars and bikes. Now the kids are stuck in front of a screen. They may not even have a present father.

Every high school had auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop. Skilled professions were respected.

There are still a lot of highly skilled mechanics. You see them in the tuner community. But they make their money doing other things.

To give you an idea of the generational shift, one of my roommates, who is a millennial, was looking for the "plant scissors" the other day. I was like "dude, they are called 'pruners.'"

 

[horsepower]

I don’t necessarily blame the mechanics either.
I spoke to a KTM certified guru mechanic and he indicated that While he thinks it’s a mass sensor issue , the whole industry has become so specialized , as have these bike systems , that keeping up with the joneses I’m skills and tech has become next to impossible.
On a KTM, a simple tune up would require a whole bunch of readjustments as well, from throttle To sensors , to micro screen filters to a tom of recalibrations. Every time.
I would rather wrench less and ride more so I hope they slow down on making bikes smarter than we are and go back to making them more user friendly.
Most of us can’t even begin to tap into a Bike’s full potential and do t need all this extra stuff anyway.

 

[W800]

I don’t necessarily blame the mechanics either.
I spoke to a KTM certified guru mechanic and he indicated that While he thinks it’s a mass sensor issue , the whole industry has become so specialized , as have these bike systems , that keeping up with the joneses I’m skills and tech has become next to impossible.
On a KTM, a simple tune up would require a whole bunch of readjustments as well, from throttle To sensors , to micro screen filters to a tom of recalibrations. Every time.
I would rather wrench less and ride more so I hope they slow down on making bikes smarter than we are and go back to making them more user friendly.
Most of us can’t even begin to tap into a Bike’s full potential and do t need all this extra stuff anyway.

Agreed. That's what I liked about one of my old Harleys. It had no smog, no electronics. I'm really leaning at this point toward just getting some old parts and building a kickstart only bobber, lol. I liked it when bikes were about as complex as lawnmowers.

And they were still pretty fast. The Vincents were doing 120mph in the 1950's, using 30's technology. Brakes are better now, as are tires and frames. So it's entirely possible to build a decent handing and fast bike using mostly old technology and a little new.

 

[Busy Little Shop]

So the BIGGEST “ hindsight is 20/20” lesson that I have learned here :
1) only buy a KTM from a KTM expert ( like A Conan or a Stan23) who will have a wealth of info and a meticulous bike.
OR,
2) Go Directly to a KTM specialist and do not waste your time or efforts on anything less. $1500 and a lot of time and energy could have been saved.

Appointment booked for MACH 1.

Hiya Dani... I don't have the answer for you this time but I have a few
suggestions to add in hindsight that might multiply your pleasure and divide
your grief when buying used next time...

Used bikes are full of unknowns... there are 3 things I'd want known before
buying from anyone expert or not...

Compression Test
Request or perform a compression test... if the engine shows factory
compression then break in was complete right which gives evidence
that the piston ring seal is good...

Idle Check...
Start the engine at let it gain operating temp... take the idle
adjustment and begin lowering the rpms... you're noting the lowest
rpm the bike will run... if the engine ticks over near 500 rpm or
less... there's a lot of things right about the internal condition...
things like compression and tune up... buyers may negotiate the
price shrewdly based on this simple idle test...

Steering Stops...
Check the steering stops for crash damage... this will signal a fall and
even which side sustained the damage... you can replace everything but
the steering stops will still give it away...

Troubleshoot tips...

Battery...
Start with the battery for it's the weakest link in the whole system... To
determine the condition of an Maintenance Free battery give it a
refreshing charge... wait 30 minutes... measure terminal voltage...

12.8 or higher is a good battery...
12.0 to 12.8 is a insufficient charge... recharge...
12.0 or lower... battery unserviceable...

I'd would not begin troubleshooting unless the battery's starting
voltage is greater than 12.8 volts and the charging system is steady at
the prescribe values specified in the offical shop manual... drop a few
volts and notice how the ignition and fuel injection begin to error
enough were riders complain about rough running...

Noises...
To troubleshoot an internal noise the first step is to establish the
rate at which it occurs... is the noise in time with the camshaft or
crankshaft??? camshafts rotate 1/2 the speed of the crankshaft...
possible source of camshaft speed noises are shim and bucket
clearances... loose cam bearing blocks... broken valve springs...
possible source of crankshaft speed noises are a scuffed piston...
stuck piston ring... rod bearings...

To pin point the exact location of the noise hold a long tip screw driver or a
length of garden hose up to your ear and probe the suspected area...

 

[Roadracer__AL]

One *very* good thing about motorcycles becoming computers on wheels is that automotive computing has -- by government mandate -- been pretty decent about self-diagnosing.

Modern bikes, just like cars, have the equivalent of an ODB port that you plug your laptop into running the $$$$$$$ factory diagnostic software and it pinpoints the trouble zone. (That's one thing I wish were more like cars - the ability to use standard ODB readers.)

It may or may not actually BE the sensor that the software has pinpointed, but it's absolutely going to be in the supporting environment of that sensor - is the sensor dirty? The wiring to it frayed? A bad ground to that sensor? etc.

BTW, back on topic, speaking of self-diagnosis... I don't recall and am far too lazy to re-read the thread -- Did you do the thing where you jumper two pins in the diagnostic port, and read the flashing-light code on the dashboard?

 

[W800]

One *very* good thing about motorcycles becoming computers on wheels is that automotive computing has -- by government mandate -- been pretty decent about self-diagnosing.

Modern bikes, just like cars, have the equivalent of an ODB port that you plug your laptop into running the $$$$$$$ factory diagnostic software and it pinpoints the trouble zone. (That's one thing I wish were more like cars - the ability to use standard ODB readers.)

It may or may not actually BE the sensor that the software has pinpointed, but it's absolutely going to be in the supporting environment of that sensor - is the sensor dirty? The wiring to it frayed? A bad ground to that sensor? etc.

BTW, back on topic, speaking of self-diagnosis... I don't recall and am far too lazy to re-read the thread -- Did you do the thing where you jumper two pins in the diagnostic port, and read the flashing-light code on the dashboard?

Agreed on that point. I have seen dongles that will allow you to use an ODBII reader on a bike. Never tried one though. On my Kawasaki I just use the "ground the yellow wire" method to get the codes. Interestingly, when you pull the seat and gas tank there's a whole mess of blue LEDs that are wired in bunches. I suspect they use them to self test sub components during assembly.

 

[ST Guy]

Troubleshoot tips...

Battery...
Start with the battery for it's the weakest link in the whole system... To
determine the condition of an Maintenance Free battery give it a
refreshing charge... wait 30 minutes... measure terminal voltage...

12.8 or higher is a good battery...
12.0 to 12.8 is a insufficient charge... recharge...
12.0 or lower... battery unserviceable...

I'd would not begin troubleshooting unless the battery's starting
voltage is greater than 12.8 volts and the charging system is steady at
the prescribe values specified in the offical shop manual...

Busy Little Shop: This is done with respect, but I believe you are putting out some misinformation regarding batteries.

12.8 volts is, indeed, a good battery. However, 12.8 is also a new battery. As a battery ages, it can no longer produce 12.8 volts but that doesn't mean it's no good or undercharged. In my book, a battery that only produces 12.7 or 12.6 volts is still good. It's just showing some age and is usually not under charged. Below 12.6, though, and the battery is headed for the trash bin, though often one can get more service from it. Therefore, I think you need to change your second line in your battery statement.

Your third statement also needs adjusting. Yes, a battery that can only manage 12.0 volts is definitely shot. 12.0 is a fully discharged battery. But if all you can get out of the battery is 12.1, 12.2, 12.3 after charging, then give it up. That battery is also shot. You might get a little more life out of a battery putting out 12.4 after charging but you're taking a risk. And, as mentioned before, 12.5 is on the downslope of battery life.

Also of note, 30 minutes is usually not sufficient to time for the surface charge to dissipate. That's why I say wait two hours after disconnecting the charger or shutting the bike off before taking any voltage measurements. And not troubleshooting until the battery voltage is above 12.8 is also incorrect. If all a battery can produce is 12.65, for instance, that's still a good battery and troubleshooting can and should proceed.

Here's what I'd say:

If after charging properly AND letting the battery sit disconnected from the charger 2 hours:

12.8 indicates a new or newish battery.
12.6 to 12.79 indicates a used but perfectly serviceable battery.
Below 12.6 down to 12.4 means you're running on borrowed time.
12.39 and below....time for a new battery.

Feel free to use the above.