Whats the word on a Yamaha FZ6R

[sifr]

I started on a 250 too. I only recommend it for the newbiest of newbs.

Where is Gary J. when you need him?

 

[Kornholio]

Where is Gary J. when you need him?

I think my statement is being taken out of context. I'm not against 250's at all.

I am however completely against flat out new riders jumping on 600cc sportbikes. There's plenty of other options in between that can suit the rider's tastes as well as being practical as a new-rider motorcycle.

 

[Z3n]

This is a very reasoned and well thought-out response. It's a shame that some people try to make this topic so black and white. The "buy a trashed 250 or you're gonna die" response, mixed with a healthy dose of preachiness and 'do as I say, not as I did' is very offputting for new riders (who, by the way, are likely also new to the forum and don't yet get the whole BARF culture and it's "idiosyncrasies"). It's no wonder the advise is so often ignored.

I'd give you my reasons for not selecting a used 250 as my first bike, but then I'd be accused of rationalizing, ego-stroking, or being an idiot, and, well, I could really give a shit what others think because I'm quite comfortable with my decision.

The same reasons that he lists are the reason that the 250, GS500, Ninja 500, and to a much lesser degree, the SV650 and Kawasaki 650s are the given bikes for a new rider.

We don't know her. We don't know if she has never driven a car, or is a performance kart racer in her off time.

With that in mind, the safest thing to do is make no assumptions about her or her level of experience, and to recommend the smaller displacement bikes. I've known people who have started on everything from Sumos to literbikes, and without a personal relationship with the person, I would never recommend anything but the baseline, because it's unsafe to assume anything about someone's level of experience.

People get all butt hurt because they started on bigger bikes and they were fine and blah blah blah...no one cares about you, this isn't about you and your experiences, you're not the person asking for advice. You don't know them or how they ride or if they barely scraped past their MSF test or were jesus on a motorcycle. This is about keeping new riders as safe as possible, and introducing them to the riding in such a fashion that they continue to ride for the rest of their lives.


I did 500 mile days on my 250, I don't think that the arguement that it's "not enough" for freeway use holds water, any more than the arguement that a civic isn't enough for freeways. 0-60 in 5.6 seconds is still damn fast. Top speed of around 110 isn't anything to scoff at either. Yes, the engine is screaming, that's what 250 engines do. They will take it.

If you want your 250 to feel faster, take the windscreen off.

 

[Gabe]

So I don't know if you're referring to my posts, but what I'm trying to say is:

1. Many new riders post this kind of question seeking validation and then "mine" the responses that support or validate their desires.

2. The responses that support them wanting a bike too big/powerful/expensive for their real needs usually (but not always) come from less-experienced riders who made the same poor decision. This advice should not be discounted, but taken with a grain of salt, and the advisers should disclose that they don't have that much more experience than the person asking for advice. Just because it worked out well for them doesn't mean it was a good decision. I joined the USMC out of High School because I thought it would be a cool thing to do. I almost got killed several times and career-wise it was probably dumb as well. But I wouldn't sell that experience for any amount of money, as it's helped to make me who I am.

Congratuations for making a decision that suited your needs. Are you going to be the best rider that you can be? Are you as safe and skilled as you would be had you gone another route. Perhaps, but it's not as likely. And that's why it's not the best advice, in my opinion.

This is a very reasoned and well thought-out response. It's a shame that some people try to make this topic so black and white. The "buy a trashed 250 or you're gonna die" response, mixed with a healthy dose of preachiness and 'do as I say, not as I did' is very offputting for new riders (who, by the way, are likely also new to the forum and don't yet get the whole BARF culture and it's "idiosyncrasies"). It's no wonder the advise is so often ignored.

I'd give you my reasons for not selecting a used 250 as my first bike, but then I'd be accused of rationalizing, ego-stroking, or being an idiot, and, well, I could really give a shit what others think because I'm quite comfortable with my decision.

 

[JPK]

With that in mind, the safest thing to do is make no assumptions about her or her level of experience, and to recommend the smaller displacement bikes. I've known people who have started on everything from Sumos to literbikes, and without a personal relationship with the person, I would never recommend anything but the baseline, because it's unsafe to assume anything about someone's level of experience.

How about this novel concept- perhaps we could dispense with the assumptions altogether, and ask a few questions of her, or the next poor soul to walk into this bear trap, and give an intelligent response that addresses their particular abilities, experience, etc. instead of spewing out the same tired cliches.

Threads like this don't "keep new riders as safe as possible, and introduce them to the riding in such a fashion that they continue to ride for the rest of their lives." They just turn them away from this forum as a source of information. There's a ton of good information that's been posted in this thread, but it's largely lost amid all the posturing.

 

[Z3n]

How about this novel concept- perhaps we could dispense with the assumptions altogether, and ask a few questions of her, or the next poor soul to walk into this bear trap, and give an intelligent response that addresses their particular abilities, experience, etc. instead of spewing out the same tired cliches.

Threads like this don't "keep new riders as safe as possible, and introduce them to the riding in such a fashion that they continue to ride for the rest of their lives." They just turn them away from this forum as a source of information. There's a ton of good information that's been posted in this thread, but it's largely lost amid all the posturing.

What streetbike riding experience do you have?

-jim

None... I rode a Ninja 250 for like an hour two weekend ago after I got my license.

First 2 posts.

That's why the people are defaulting to the 250/500s, and not even really mentioning the 650s. Some people can handle them, I wouldn't recommend it for people without some previous experience. Did you read the thread?

I recommend the 250 because I had way more fun on my 250 than most of the other 500s that I rode. 14k redline pretty much says it all, and the bike lived there. It's way more fun to ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow.

 

[Jasepaste]

How about this novel concept- perhaps we could dispense with the assumptions altogether, and ask a few questions of her, or the next poor soul to walk into this bear trap, and give an intelligent response that addresses their particular abilities, experience, etc. instead of spewing out the same tired cliches.

Threads like this don't "keep new riders as safe as possible, and introduce them to the riding in such a fashion that they continue to ride for the rest of their lives." They just turn them away from this forum as a source of information. There's a ton of good information that's been posted in this thread, but it's largely lost amid all the posturing.

I actually think this is one of the most toned-down barf threads I've ever seen, and very informative. I mean, when someone posts a thread asking what we think about the bike she wants, what did you expect people to say? A lot of cliched responses? I see a lot of people that have owned more then one bike that want to put in their .

 

[sifr]

I actually think this is one of the most toned-down barf threads I've ever seen, and very informative. I mean, when someone posts a thread asking what we think about the bike she wants, what did you expect people to say?

What did I expect? "Tits or GTFO".

 

[JPK]

Re #1: Fair enough. A lot do.

Re #2: I think that oftentimes people will overgeneralize and assume that anyone not looking at a 250 must be looking at a 600SS or a literbike. The fact is that, while the SV650, the Ninja 650R etc, are far more powerful than the 250, they are still a universe away from supersports and literbikes. You made the point earlier that the "most feared" bikes of yesteryear had as much power as a Ninja 650R today. That is true, but they also had relatively crappy suspensions and brakes, so this isn't anywhere close to a fair analogy. I won't say that I think a Ninja 650R or an SV650 or an FZ6R could be a good beginner bike for some riders because I'm too new myself to make that sort of recommendation to anyone, but there are plenty of reviews of these bikes by riders just as experienced as yourself saying as much.

Lastly, this is an honest question, please tell me why I'd be a safer and more skilled rider on a 250 instead of a 650R? Here's what I've heard so far 1) accident reports never involve a 250 or a dual-sport (this is flat-out false. I can point you to any number of people that have been killed or permanently injured on 250's or dual sports) 2) 250's are more forgiving of newbie mistakes- this may or may not be. What I've read and heard from talking to riders of old-gen 250's is that they drag their hard parts mercilessly all over most of the better roads around here, there suspension is soft and wallowy, and the brakes leave a lot to be desired. Doesn't sound so safe to me. 3) it's funner to ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow- why on earth would I want to ride anything fast on the street as a new rider? The thought of railing an old 250 that's dragging it's exhaust through some of the mountain roads around here frankly scares the piss out of me. I'm quite content as a new rider to ride a "puckerless" pace, working on form, lines, riding relaxed, etc. When I made my bike decision I can assure you that "what bike can I rail the fastest on Hwy 9" was nowhere on the list of criteria. When I'm ready to learn to ride fast, I'll go to California Superbike School or similar, and do it on the track.

So I don't know if you're referring to my posts, but what I'm trying to say is:

1. Many new riders post this kind of question seeking validation and then "mine" the responses that support or validate their desires.

2. The responses that support them wanting a bike too big/powerful/expensive for their real needs usually (but not always) come from less-experienced riders who made the same poor decision. This advice should not be discounted, but taken with a grain of salt, and the advisers should disclose that they don't have that much more experience than the person asking for advice. Just because it worked out well for them doesn't mean it was a good decision. I joined the USMC out of High School because I thought it would be a cool thing to do. I almost got killed several times and career-wise it was probably dumb as well. But I wouldn't sell that experience for any amount of money, as it's helped to make me who I am.

Congratuations for making a decision that suited your needs. Are you going to be the best rider that you can be? Are you as safe and skilled as you would be had you gone another route. Perhaps, but it's not as likely. And that's why it's not the best advice, in my opinion.

 

[JPK]

First 2 posts.

That's why the people are defaulting to the 250/500s, and not even really mentioning the 650s. Some people can handle them, I wouldn't recommend it for people without some previous experience. Did you read the thread?

I recommend the 250 because I had way more fun on my 250 than most of the other 500s that I rode. 14k redline pretty much says it all, and the bike lived there. It's way more fun to ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow.

Yes, I read the thread. What confuses me is your oscillation between always recommending the default 250 in one post, and then seemingly acknowledging that some people can handle a larger bike. The 250 may very well be the right recommendation for the OP. My prior comment to you was directed more at your statement that you "would never recommend anything but the baseline, because it's unsafe to assume anything about someone's level of experience." Hence, my comment about not just making assumptions.

 

[Z3n]

Lastly, this is an honest question, please tell me why I'd be a safer and more skilled rider on a 250 instead of a 650R? Here's what I've heard so far 1) accident reports never involve a 250 or a dual-sport (this is flat-out false. I can point you to any number of people that have been killed or permanently injured on 250's or dual sports) 2) 250's are more forgiving of newbie mistakes- this may or may not be. What I've read and heard from talking to riders of old-gen 250's is that they drag their hard parts mercilessly all over most of the better roads around here, there suspension is soft and wallowy, and the brakes leave a lot to be desired. Doesn't sound so safe to me. 3) it's funner to ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow- why on earth would I want to ride anything fast on the street as a new rider? The thought of railing an old 250 that's dragging it's exhaust through some of the mountain roads around here frankly scares the piss out of me. I'm quite content as a new rider to ride a "puckerless" pace, working on form, lines, riding relaxed, etc. When I made my bike decision I can assure you that "what bike can I rail the fastest on Hwy 9" was nowhere on the list of criteria. When I'm ready to learn to ride fast, I'll go to California Superbike School or similar, and do it on the track.

Not directed at me, but I'll take a crack at it.

And to address one other thing first: There's a significant difference between the engine feel and performance of a twin and an inline 4, which is the primary difference between teh SV and the FZ6R. Fewer cylinders tends to be better for new riders, as 4 cylinders tend to need to be reved and hit the power hard, which isn't conducive to learning to ride well. Have you ridden any 4s at speed yet?

Why will you be a safer and more skilled rider if you start on a 250?

First: A 250 is light. Very light. Light means that it's going to be easier to correct mistakes on it. It's got a very forgiving suspension geometry setup, which leads to stability, which is good when a new rider tenses up and starts grabbing the bars or doing something stupid. It doesn't make a lot of power, so accidents with the throttle (say, winging it open when you hit a pot hole due to not having good throttle control) lead to irritation rather than wheelies. The brakes don't bite as hard, so it's a lot harder to lock the front tire through a panic grab at the brakes. Not a lot of engine braking, so accidentally busting a massive downshift and dumping the clutch midcorner doesn't mean you're on the ground before the engine spins up.

If no one ever made a mistake, if they always did everything right, then there would be no problems with people starting on SS600s. But when you do make a mistake, and ask any experienced rider this: Would you rather be on a literbike or a 250? Every single one will say that they'd rather be on the 250.

It's fun to ride a slow bike fast because it's more thrilling to ride a gokart at 90% of it's potential than it is to drive a F1 car at 20% of it's potential. That 90% also happens to all occur sub 30mph, so it's not particularly dangerous or fast, it just feels awesome. If a motorcycle tops out at 100mph, 80mph feels awesomely fast. If a motorcycle tops out at 170, 80mph feels like you're in a parking lot.



Edit: The best thing you can do to understand why they're great beginner bikes is to RIDE ONE. Pretend you're a beginner and hop on one and note how in control and comfortable you feel.

 

[mike23w]

600
I started on a 600 (after taking MSF).
I hated riding it.
I didn't ride for a year or two because it was too big, too fast and I was afraid I was going to crash. I was uncomfortable and, yes, scared of riding my big new bike.

I hated riding and quit.

250
After a layoff I caught the bike bug again. Being wiser I bought a shitbox, crashed ninja 250 for $750 from a young dude in Oakland. He rode the bike back to my place. I fix it up to make it legal.

I ride it everywhere. Almost every fucking day.
It's small, it's light, it's fun, I love revving the piss out of it. I'm comfortable on it because I can easily flatfoot it. And I love riding for the first time. I even love that I can do all the maintenance without worrying about messing it up (since the bike's technology is old but simple). Oddly, people that don't know anything about bikes, can't tell my ninjette is small and relatively slow. The cop that stopped me asked if it was a Ninja 650.

so...
I get back on my big 600 which I never sold. This time I think it's a great bike. Why did I go from hating to loving it? Same bike. It's not the bike. It's me. My experience/skill is a better match for it.

My only point is I started out on the wrong bike and almost gave up on riding.
I went to a smaller bike and that's where I found the joy.

The choice of your first bike will make a huge difference on the quality of your motorcycling experience. So much, that if you choose the wrong bike for you, it will make you quit riding. It makes that much difference.

Choose wisely. A conservative decision when starting out is, I think, a good decision.

 

[Z3n]

Yes, I read the thread. What confuses me is your oscillation between always recommending the default 250 in one post, and then seemingly acknowledging that some people can handle a larger bike. The 250 may very well be the right recommendation for the OP. My prior comment to you was directed more at your statement that you "would never recommend anything but the baseline, because it's unsafe to assume anything about someone's level of experience." Hence, my comment about not just making assumptions.

Some people can handle them. The OP doesn't appear to be one of them, based off of her complete lack of experience riding a motorcycle. If she said she had years of offroad riding experience and a good, experienced (ie, not Ricky Racer from down the street) mentor to teach her how to ride correctly, she probably could buy that FZ6R and would be ok. I wouldn't have a problem recommending an SV, Ninja 650, or maybe even the FZ in a situation like that. I'd still recommend avoiding anything with over 70hp at the rear wheel, but the FZ is close enough that a level headed rider with previous motorcycle experience should be ok.

 

[Psyclotron]

600
I started on a 600 (after taking MSF).
I hated riding it.
I didn't ride for a year or two because it was too big, too fast and I was afraid I was going to crash. I was uncomfortable and, yes, scared of riding my big new bike.

I hated riding and quit.

250
After a layoff I caught the bike bug again. Being wiser I bought a shitbox, crashed ninja 250 for $750 from a young dude in Oakland. He rode the bike back to my place. I fix it up to make it legal.

I ride it everywhere. Almost every fucking day.
It's small, it's light, it's fun, I'm comfortable on it because I can easily flatfoot it. And I love riding for the first time. I even love that I can do all the maintenance without worrying about messing it up (since the bike's technology is old but simple). Oddly, people that don't know anything about bikes, can't tell my ninjette is small and slow. The cop that stopped me asked if it was a Ninja 650.

so...
I get back on my big 600 which I never sold. This time I think it's a great bike. Why did I go from hating to loving it? Same bike. It's not the bike. It's me. My experience/skill is a better match for it.

My only point is I started out on the wrong bike and almost gave up on riding.
I went to a smaller bike and that's where I found the joy.

The choice of your first bike will make a huge difference on the quality of your motorcycling experience. So much, that if you choose the wrong bike for you, it will make you quit riding. It makes that much difference.

Choose wisely. A conservative decision when starting out is, I think, a good decision.

+eleventy billion

this is why trying to "buy up" for later to avoid some imagined scenario of selling and buying another bike is silly.

fact is, without riding experience you have no foresight to know what you'll want later.

sit on every bike you can, and test ride a bunch too. then pick one that's, ideally, cheap and used (For reasons outlined by others), but that also fits you well not just when sitting on it, but _riding_ it, which changes everything

who knows? maybe something besides a sprotbile will feel a lot better as a first bike! it;s all about being comfortable and building confidence, not worrying about being "bored" at some imaginary future. (you'll know when it's time for something different)

"you'll be teh bored!!!11" is ego-projection by those terrified some n00b is having more fun on their $1k POS than they are on their $17k bling tractor

 

[Gabe]

The fact is that, while the SV650, the Ninja 650R etc, are far more powerful than the 250, they are still a universe away from supersports and literbikes.

All due respect, you are demonstrating your lack of knowledge and understanding. Go look at AFM laptimes (http://www.afmracing.org/downloads/results/2009/inf-0409.html) and compare 650 Twins to 600 Superbike. There's about 5 seconds difference: a lot on a racetrack, but hardly a "universe." Sure, racing and street are different things, but I guarantee a good rider on an Sv650...or even a Ninja 250 will have no trouble keeping up with less-experienced riders on 600 SS bikes or even literbikes. I've seen it happen.

That is true, but they also had relatively crappy suspensions and brakes, so this isn't anywhere close to a fair analogy.

It's a great analogy, because everything back then had crappy tires and brakes, just as almost everyhting now has excellent tires and brakes by 70s standards. Are you saying that good tires and brakes makes any bike safe for an entry-level rider? If that was the case, we should get them all on Literbikes and supersports, because they have th ebest suspesnion and brakes.

I won't say that I think a Ninja 650R or an SV650 or an FZ6R could be a good beginner bike for some riders because I'm too new myself to make that sort of recommendation to anyone,

But that's exactly what you said yesterday! What changed?

1) accident reports never involve a 250 or a dual-sport

I never wrote that.

What I've read and heard from talking to riders of old-gen 250's is that they drag their hard parts mercilessly all over most of the better roads around here, there suspension is soft and wallowy, and the brakes leave a lot to be desired.

This is true, but a new rider doesn't have to worry about it. And when he does, $200 in suspension work and an EX500 or GSX-R shock off eBay and good tires will take care of that. If you exceed the limits of the bike past that on the street, you will be riding too fast for anything, regardless of displacement, and you will crash sooner or later.

- why on earth would I want to ride anything fast on the street as a new rider?

Fast is a relative term. Fast on a 250 Ninja can be the speed limit sometimes, and when you keep up with a pack of guys on faster bikes, you are the hero and lauded for your skills. When you go slow on a fast bike, it's just sad.

For the record, I have been riding much longer than a year.

Maybe so, but you took the MSF BRC in May of last year, and didn't seem to know much about riding a year ago:
http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245957

I applaud your enthusiasm and commitment to riding. But you said "I started on a 250 too. I only recommend it for the newbiest of newbs" which is different from saying "I believe the 250 is better suited for someone that needs something light and easy to operate but not necessarily for freeway use on a regular daily basis." And it's 180 degrees from "I miss my little 250 and would love to have one again just to throw around on weekends."

 

[JPK]

Good thoughts. Thanks.

Not directed at me, but I'll take a crack at it.

And to address one other thing first: There's a significant difference between the engine feel and performance of a twin and an inline 4, which is the primary difference between teh SV and the FZ6R. Fewer cylinders tends to be better for new riders, as 4 cylinders tend to need to be reved and hit the power hard, which isn't conducive to learning to ride well. Have you ridden any 4s at speed yet?

This is exactly my point, not all 6xx cc bikes are the same animal. I've never ridden a FZ6R (or any 4 for that matter), but from what I've read, even though it's a 4, it's pretty heavily de-tuned for both cost cutting and new rider friendliness.

Why will you be a safer and more skilled rider if you start on a 250?

First: A 250 is light. Very light. Light means that it's going to be easier to correct mistakes on it. It's got a very forgiving suspension geometry setup, which leads to stability, which is good when a new rider tenses up and starts grabbing the bars or doing something stupid. It doesn't make a lot of power, so accidents with the throttle (say, winging it open when you hit a pot hole due to not having good throttle control) lead to irritation rather than wheelies. The brakes don't bite as hard, so it's a lot harder to lock the front tire through a panic grab at the brakes. Not a lot of engine braking, so accidentally busting a massive downshift and dumping the clutch midcorner doesn't mean you're on the ground before the engine spins up.

If no one ever made a mistake, if they always did everything right, then there would be no problems with people starting on SS600s. But when you do make a mistake, and ask any experienced rider this: Would you rather be on a literbike or a 250? Every single one will say that they'd rather be on the 250.

Without getting too hypethical and trying to stay in the real world, I think that you bring up some very valid concerns, but some of it sounds a bit over dramatized. If I grab a fistful of brake on pretty much anything, including my bicycle, I'll end up on my ass. If I'm downshifting in the middle of a corner, as a newbie, that's the issue, not whether the bike can respond to it or not. If I take care of my braking and downshifting before turn-in, there's much less of a problem. Yeah, I accidentally double downshifted and/or hamfisted the clutch a few times when I first got the bike, but I did it before the turn while I was still going straight. The back wheel chattered for a moment and off I went. Throttle control is an issue, but I'll give you $100 if you can wheelie a 650R in anything but first gear Your last sentence here is exactly what I'm talking about- of course I wouldn't want to be on a literbike, but I don't think anyone here has mentioned literbikes, so can we agree that just because a literbike would kill a new rider doesn't mean that a 650 twin will?

It's fun to ride a slow bike fast because it's more thrilling to ride a gokart at 90% of it's potential than it is to drive a F1 car at 20% of it's potential. That 90% also happens to all occur sub 30mph, so it's not particularly dangerous or fast, it just feels awesome. If a motorcycle tops out at 100mph, 80mph feels awesomely fast. If a motorcycle tops out at 170, 80mph feels like you're in a parking lot.

True story- the second day I had my bike I was cruising down Hwy 9 (the flat part between LG and Saratoga where there's two lanes each way and the speed limit is 50). I had the hugest shit-eating grin on my face and couldn't believe how much fun I was having riding a motorcycle. I looked down at the speedo and was going 45 mph. I don't need to be revving a poor bike to within an inch of it's life to have fun. arty

 

[Gabe]

I think that you bring up some very valid concerns, but some of it sounds a bit over dramatized.

This is because you haven't experienced the drama of flying over your handlebars at 60, or sliding on your belly at 110, or flying wide into a decreasing-radius turn with a pickup truck grill filling your field of vision. Compared to these things, I would call it "underdramatized."

Motorcycling on any bike is fun and safe until it abruptly isn't...

 

[sixtytwo]

"you'll be teh bored!!!11" is ego-projection by those terrified some n00b is having more fun on their $1k POS than they are on their $17k bling tractor

That's fair enough. What I do have a problem with, however, is when people hold the 250 in such a high light that it gives the impression to new riders that the 250 is the equivalent of life insurance.

The 250 is not inherently safer than a 600, a literbike, or a turbo busa. It will not automatically steer you around obstacles, it will not prevent you from hitting the ground when you tip over, and it will certainly not bend space and time around you so that you're somehow impossible to hit. In fact, a lot of 250's, especially older ones, still have the crappy OEM tires, crappy brakes, and other problems that may very well be safety issues.

That said, I would recommend a 250 to a new rider because it is easier to learn on. I would not imply that it's any safer though. Safety is always the responsibility of the rider, and riding a smaller displacement bike should not instill a false sense of security.

 

[Kornholio]

Maybe so, but you took the MSF BRC in May of last year, and didn't seem to know much about riding a year ago:
http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245957

I applaud your enthusiasm and commitment to riding. But you said "I started on a 250 too. I only recommend it for the newbiest of newbs" which is different from saying "I believe the 250 is better suited for someone that needs something light and easy to operate but not necessarily for freeway use on a regular daily basis." And it's 180 degrees from "I miss my little 250 and would love to have one again just to throw around on weekends."

On dirt, Gabe. I'm sure you can figure that out. Geez. :| I started STREET RIDING on a 250 because I honestly didn't know any better and didn't want to spend a ton of money. I don't think that's a concept that difficult to understand. However, like I said, if I had known then what I know now, I would've bought a 500 instead and might have even kept it some time longer. Furthermore just because someone attends the MSF course at 27 or 30 or even 60 doesn't mean they don't have riding experience.

I miss my 250 now because, yes, I would like something to fling around on the weekends for shits and giggles. That's it.

 

[Gabe]

+100. I saw one with a GGCycles lisence-plate frame and dealer tag embedded into a side of the hill on Mt. Tam a few weeks ago. The rider was being taped to a backboard by EMTs. It's plenty fast. Compared to a Ninja 650 or god forbid a CBR600RR, it's a much better choice for a new rider.

Can we all stipulate that as a given? Given the same rider with the same skill level, the 250 ninja rider will probably have a smaller chance of killing themselves?

That's fair enough. What I do have a problem with, however, is when people hold the 250 in such a high light that it gives the impression to new riders that the 250 is the equivalent of life insurance.

The 250 is not inherently safer than a 600, a literbike, or a turbo busa. It will not automatically steer you around obstacles, it will not prevent you from hitting the ground when you tip over, and it will certainly not bend space and time around you so that you're somehow impossible to hit. In fact, a lot of 250's, especially older ones, still have the crappy OEM tires, crappy brakes, and other problems that may very well be safety issues.

That said, I would recommend a 250 to a new rider because it is easier to learn on. I would not imply that it's any safer though. Safety is always the responsibility of the rider, and riding a smaller displacement bike should not instill a false sense of security.