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CSC motorcycles? RZ3

I'd buy for 2k if this was fitted as a sumo

Even that version at 2k is kinda tempting. Think there's one on cl for $2400 and maybe a few hundred more for a new one otd. Too heavy though, these things need to be bare bones.
 
Unome:

Perhaps you could refer us to one of your books; I'd enjoy reading any of them.

Any chance you might come out from behind your screen name? Anonymity is such a cowardly prop.

Of all my books, The Gatling Gun was the best selling. I did very well with it. The research was the best part, as was working on the modern versions on the A-10, the Vulcan, the AC-130, and the F-16. And there actually was a movie (of sorts) about it; I was on the History Channel's "Tales of the Gun" series when they produced a show about early machine guns. You can still find that episode on YouTube if you look for it.

The Gatling Gun is out of print now, but if there is sufficient interest, I could probably pitch it to the publisher and get it back in print. I'm not aware of any mistakes in that book, but if you know of any, by all means, please let me know. The reviewers at Colt (who produced the original Gatlings), General Electric (who produced the modern versions), the US Army, and the military magazines who reviewed it didn't find any. But then, they were not Unome.

Alas, it is a bit more difficult to buy The Gatling Gun. But 5000 Miles At 8000 RPM and Moto Colombia! are still in print, and very shortly, Riding China will be, too. Did I mention you can buy them on Amazon?

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So, about that "Unome" thing...actually, I don't. Care to step out into the open?

Mr. Berk isn't playing around!

The thread is entertaining, but I can't find a single "gotcha" moment with Joe. I like this dude more with every post! :thumbup
 
Mr. Berk isn't playing around!

The thread is entertaining, but I can't find a single "gotcha" moment with Joe. I like this dude more with every post! :thumbup

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but actually I am playing around. And I am having enormous fun doing it.

There is just something about a Chinese motorcycle and our path to market that lights some folks up. Originally, the focus was on the bike's origins. That seems to have changed to criticisms directed elsewhere (the China argument is stale when you realize the person posting the comments, usually anonymously, is doing so on a device manufactured in China). I did a blog about that topic a year or two ago, and you can read it here:

http://californiascooterco.com/blog/?p=14570

Our business model draws much heat; frequently it emerges that the most vocal critics are dealer shills or they work for another manufacturer (as has already occurred in this thread). We had a guy posting outright lies who worked for one of the Big 4 on another board; when we exposed that, he went into the Witness Protection Program. Whatever.

But the objective here is not to make people look silly (some of the folks who have posted things here need no help in that department), or to match wits with anyone, or to amuse me. The real purpose is to answer any questions anyone has about the RZ3, which is what I said in my original post. And maybe to induce folks to do a bit of research on us. And maybe to sell a few books and motorcycles in the process. Yep, guilty as charged, which I think I said in my second or third post.
 
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I appreciate your openness much more than companies like Christini. They buy a Chinese knockoff and add their patented (as if they had any respect for a patent) awd stuff and then get all weird when you try to discuss parts origin.
 
Thanks for the vote of confidence, but actually I am playing around. And I am having enormous fun doing it.

There is just something about a Chinese motorcycle and our path to market that lights some folks up. Originally, the focus was on the bike's origins. That seems to have changed to criticisms directed elsewhere (the China argument is stale when you realize the person posting the comments, usually anonymously, is doing so on a device manufactured in China). I did a blog about that topic a year or two ago, and you can read it here:

http://californiascooterco.com/blog/?p=14570

Our business model draws much heat; frequently it emerges that the most vocal critics are dealer shills or they work for another manufacturer (as has already occurred in this thread). We had a guy posting outright lies who worked for one of the Big 4 on another board; when we exposed that, he went into the Witness Protection Program. Whatever.

But the objective here is not to make people look silly (some of the folks who have posted things here need no help in that department), or to match wits with anyone, or to amuse me. The real purpose is to answer any questions anyone has about the RZ3, which is what I said in my original post. And maybe to induce folks to do a bit of research on us. And maybe to sell a few books and motorcycles in the process. Yep, guilty as charged, which I think I said in my second or third post.

From personal experience, Chinese motorcycles and scooters are shit.

I used to live in Russia where these were in the market for a while and you wouldn't see any that are more than a few years old, whereas you'd find many older Hondas, Yamahas, etc.. I actually haven't seen any older ZS250s, although they are cheap and abundant and, according to you, much reliable too.

The Chinese motorcycles/scooters/cars (with Great Wall being the only possible exception) did not live past a few years in Russian conditions and having to face Russian vast distances.

So while I applaud you for coming out like this and being the face of the company, which I think is quite cool and uncommon, I stand by my words based on past experience. :twofinger
 
Thanks for the vote of confidence, but actually I am playing around. And I am having enormous fun doing it.

There is just something about a Chinese motorcycle and our path to market that lights some folks up. Originally, the focus was on the bike's origins. That seems to have changed to criticisms directed elsewhere (the China argument is stale when you realize the person posting the comments, usually anonymously, is doing so on a device manufactured in China). I did a blog about that topic a year or two ago, and you can read it here:

http://californiascooterco.com/blog/?p=14570

Our business model draws much heat; frequently it emerges that the most vocal critics are dealer shills or they work for another manufacturer (as has already occurred in this thread). We had a guy posting outright lies who worked for one of the Big 4 on another board; when we exposed that, he went into the Witness Protection Program. Whatever.

But the objective here is not to make people look silly (some of the folks who have posted things here need no help in that department), or to match wits with anyone, or to amuse me. The real purpose is to answer any questions anyone has about the RZ3, which is what I said in my original post. And maybe to induce folks to do a bit of research on us. And maybe to sell a few books and motorcycles in the process. Yep, guilty as charged, which I think I said in my second or third post.

I think part of it is that most of the time, companies have to become sponsors to be allowed to advertise their products on this forum.

TOS leaves it up to the admin team's discretion on whether or not to take action, so whatever.

My issue is still that I would have liked to have seen at least a little bit of original product from CSC, I actually remember when the RX-3 was first being advertised and thought the mustang minibike things were pretty cool. Now those are gone and literally all CSC seems to do is importing these models. I also don't like that the design of all the bikes is so similar to other bikes on the market. Especially the Rx-3 aping BMW's GS models (note that in one of the pictures you posted earlier, the rider with the Chinese flag on the back and no helmet actually tacked fake BMW roundels on the bike and luggage.) As I said, I think the model Cleveland Cyclewerks uses, where the designs for the majority of their bikes are their own, even though they are produced in china, bothers me quite a bit less. Maybe after seeing some success from these models CSC will actually pursue that, until then I don't find the bikes or the company to be very interesting or compelling.
 
From personal experience, Chinese motorcycles and scooters are shit.

I'd have totally agreed, but the pitbike market has opened my eyes to some decent stuff coming out of China. Not to imply that any of it is better than anything Japanese, but some of it isn't too far off. Plus, they're willing to make stuff the Japanese mfr's aren't.
 
I'd have totally agreed, but the pitbike market has opened my eyes to some decent stuff coming out of China. Not to imply that any of it is better than anything Japanese, but some of it isn't too far off. Plus, they're willing to make stuff the Japanese mfr's aren't.

Making pitbikes is one thing, making motorcycles that go on the highway for extended periods of time & don't rust apart is a completely different thing.

There are barely any Zongs on the used market in Russia because they rust to shit and fall apart before their owners could sell them. They've been around there for a while and do not have a good reputation.
 
A few years ago I was checking out a dealer selling some particular brand of Chinese motorcycles. Brand new and sitting on the showroom floor they had rusted parts on them.
Maybe not all Chinese manufacturers are the same but those bikes were in this RZ3 price range.
 
A few years ago I was checking out a dealer selling some particular brand of Chinese motorcycles. Brand new and sitting on the showroom floor they had rusted parts on them.
Maybe not all Chinese manufacturers are the same but those bikes were in this RZ3 price range.

Well, if it was at dealer in the US, it wasn't one of ours. We won't sell through dealers.

I understand the comments some of you made above about Chinese bikes. It is our biggest marketing challenge. One poster accurately described his observations as being based on his past experience. Our challenge is to change those perceptions based on things that are happening today. I would not expect anyone to simply take my word for it that these are bikes built to a different quality level. I strongly encourage you to take the time to read through the threads on ADVRider, ChinaRiders, and elsewhere. Yep, there have been some problems, but there are a lot of folks who love their RX3s and TT250s.

The BMW roundel thing is a bit of a funny story. There's a dude in Las Vegas (another guy who hides behind a screen name) who makes those roundels here in the US. He tried to sell them to us with the BMW logo and the letters "CSC" (instead of "BMW"). We declined, at first only because he wouldn't tell us who he was. Life is challenging enough without having to worry about lawsuits from the guys in Bavaria, and you don't need an MBA to know that it is bad business to buy from someone who won't tell you their real name.

The guys in China love those BMW roundels, though, and I saw more than a few Chinese RX3 riders with BMW emblems on their bikes. I'm not a BMW fan (I've heard more about problems with BMWs than I have about problems with Zongshens, and I do everything I can to hear about all of our problems), which is the main reason I wouldn't have something that says BMW on it. Also, my wife drives a BMW car, and it has been a disaster from a maintenance perspective. One of the guys I rode with in China had BMW emblems on his bike; he is a Zongshen regional marketing manager. It really surprised me that he would have those emblems on his bike.
 
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Making pitbikes is one thing, making motorcycles that go on the highway for extended periods of time & don't rust apart is a completely different thing.

There are barely any Zongs on the used market in Russia because they rust to shit and fall apart before their owners could sell them. They've been around there for a while and do not have a good reputation.

Totally agree, but it's a start. There's a Chinese clone CRF250X and CRF450X out there that seems to be doing okay, but I think part of that is due to being significantly detuned.

On rust, Suzuki fasteners tend to be of lower grade and rust, Honda and Yamaha not as much. Chinese fasteners of course are worse, but even some Japanese bikes have issues. Literally falling apart has always been a big issue with the Chinese stuff, which is why the first thing you do it strip it and loctite/torque everything. I don't think any of the Chinese mfr's suggest this and they really need to, because the absolute worst bike for someone who doesn't wrench is a Chinese bike.
 
Totally agree, but it's a start. There's a Chinese clone CRF250X and CRF450X out there that seems to be doing okay, but I think part of that is due to being significantly detuned.

Literally falling apart has always been a big issue with the Chinese stuff, which is why the first thing you do it strip it and loctite/torque everything. I don't think any of the Chinese mfr's suggest this and they really need to, because the absolute worst bike for someone who doesn't wrench is a Chinese bike.

Not only that, I've seen some parts on Chinese bikes that are clearly manufactured from Chinesium, that weird aluminum-plastic alloy that seems to only exist in China (you know what I'm talking about).

I wouldn't go so far as to call Chinese bikes clones, that is giving them too much credit. They are blatant rip-offs. And by buying them you are supporting an economy and companies that have no problem stealing other people's hard work, designs, badges, and so on. Even the CSC employee in this thread said that CSC employees themselves put BMW badges on their bikes. Ask yourself if that is really a company that you'd like to support.
 
On rust, Suzuki fasteners tend to be of lower grade and rust, Honda and Yamaha not as much.

Hey, let's not even put Suzuki fasteners and Chinese fasteners in the same category. The stuff on my DR350 has been rock solid - it's fairly well built. Not as well as my old VFR, but then again... not much is built like a VFR.

And to the poster who asked before if I worked for Honda... I don't. Not sure where that impression came from, but if anyone from Honda is listening, I'd love another V4 sport bike...
 
Not only that, I've seen some parts on Chinese bikes that are clearly manufactured from Chinesium, that weird aluminum-plastic alloy that seems to only exist in China (you know what I'm talking about).

I wouldn't go so far as to call Chinese bikes clones, that is giving them too much credit. They are blatant rip-offs. And by buying them you are supporting an economy and companies that have no problem stealing other people's hard work, designs, badges, and so on. Even the CSC employee in this thread said that CSC employees themselves put BMW badges on their bikes. Ask yourself if that is really a company that you'd like to support.

Oh yeah, that crazy pot metal that's undeserving of the word "metal".

I have no idea how some get away with cloning the Honda's and selling them in the US, did Honda not patent anything? Do some patents have short lifespans?

In regard to the support thing, that's a whole other ball of wax, another thread in itself. But, I'm sure some Chinese companies are worth supporting. It comes down to the product. Take Pitster for example, their LXR is good quality and there's nothing else like it that's not from China, so I think it's fine to support them.
 
Uh, where did he say that?

One of the guys I rode with in China had BMW emblems on his bike; he is a Zongshen regional marketing manager. It really surprised me that he would have those emblems on his bike.

I think he confused Zongshen and CSC?

EDIT: I also am curious about the patent status of the Zongshen engine in relation to the similar previous offering from Honda. It is a generally accepted economic principal that new entrants to market use imitation to catch up to established competitors. Although, not to the point of patent infringement...
 
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The NC250 used in these bikes being "an older Honda clone" has been mentioned before. I honestly searched for it; for us (us in Argentina I mean) being able to find japanese quality parts for the engine sounds like a good plan; not that I've had problems with the engine (or the rest of the bike) in the 14K miles I've ridden it, but it's always good to be prepared. I'm neither a chinese basher nor a blind defender; our economy is such that this bike makes sense, for what I've paid I'd say if it lasts two years and blows up, I call it success. You wouldn't believe the price of a twenty year old very basic design like the NX400 here. The KLR650 is considered a "big, Premium" bike here and it's sold for 16K USD!
But I digress; I ended up believing that the engine is really an original design by Zongshen, if any of you have links or pictures of the said Honda engine which was supposedly cloned, I'd really like to see them.
 
The NC250 used in these bikes being "an older Honda clone" has been mentioned before. I honestly searched for it; for us (us in Argentina I mean) being able to find japanese quality parts for the engine sounds like a good plan; not that I've had problems with the engine (or the rest of the bike) in the 14K miles I've ridden it, but it's always good to be prepared. I'm neither a chinese basher nor a blind defender; our economy is such that this bike makes sense, for what I've paid I'd say if it lasts two years and blows up, I call it success. You wouldn't believe the price of a twenty year old very basic design like the NX400 here. The KLR650 is considered a "big, Premium" bike here and it's sold for 16K USD!
But I digress; I ended up believing that the engine is really an original design by Zongshen, if any of you have links or pictures of the said Honda engine which was supposedly cloned, I'd really like to see them.

They won't have the pictures or links you ask about. The NC250 engine used in the RX3, the RC3, and the RZ3 is an original design by Zongshen and Piaggio.

The CG engine is another story. That engine was originally developed by Honda for production in Brazil, and it was designed to survive in an environment where people perform little or no maintenance on their motorcycles. There's a good story about it here: http://world.honda.com/history/challenge/1975cg125/index.html. The CG engine and variants of it have been built by many companies around the world (Korea, Taiwan, Brazil, China, Pakistan, Turkey, etc.). It is probably the most common motorcycle engine configuration on the planet. Having personally owned bikes with this engine I can tell you it is bulletproof.
 
Forgot I still have this account, so maybe some input from someone who had an account for ~8 years will cull the doubt, and I still check out Joe's blog for some morning reading and follow his Zongshen adventures. I do agree that sometimes he can come off as a bit eclectic with his spreading of the Zongshen love, and yes of course he gets paid to do it [DUH! but transparency is great, who wouldn't want their questions addressed by literally someone on the inside], and lets be real here, you can truly like something, and get paid to do it. That is everyones dream in a perfect world, isn't it? I don't think he's some heartless advertising shill.

Anyways, I was very, VERY close to getting the RX3 [especially for the early adopter price of $2900] and signed up for the waiting list, was eager to give my deposit, and even checked it out in person on the weekend they showed the 2 bikes they had long before the first shipments hit stateside.

I went and checked out the bike, with my previous experience of a Chinese motorbike being a dirt bike in crate I helped my dads friend put together in a shed [circa ~2005], and it was JUNK, horrible build quality, reeked of bottom dollar, drilling out mis aligned holes, etc. This is a complete 180. I was excited, and incredibly impressed by the fit and finish, really and truly. Mind you this is only the aesthetics and surface build quality I can comment on, but it blew me away.

The only reason I did not end up getting the bike, which I honestly still kind of regret as it would have saved me some cash and I miss the dirt and tinkering with things, was because I already had a Suzuki DR350SE. I thought this was too close of a bike to try and have in addition, or to replace it with. I wanted to upgrade to something with more road manners, and while I loved the DR350 and rebuilt it from the frame in my hand to a finished bike, I commute to work on a bike 99% of the time, and it just didn't make much sense to me to downsize the engine, when my main complaint with the DR350 was the lack of highway power due to the engine size of (and already 100cc bigger than the zongshen), no matter how nice the bike looked and felt.

If I didn't already have a DR350 in the garage, and not really able to afford to have two bike or the space for them, the Zongshen would have been an absolute buy.

I have a 2013 Honda CB500X now, and I would say the fit and finish from my brief checking out of the Zongshen, the build quality is on par with my CB500X. Scouts honor.
 
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