World swimming bans transgender women from competing

[Climber]

World swimming bans transgender athletes from women's events

World swimming’s governing body has effectively banned transgender women from competing in women’s events, starting Monday.

FINA members widely adopted a new “gender inclusion policy” on Sunday that only permits swimmers who transitioned before age 12 to compete in women’s events. The organization also proposed an “open competition category.”

I don't think it's an unfair decision.

Thoughts?

 

[budman]

Fair. IMO.

 

[Butch]

Crazy.
Women are not men, men are not women, no matter how they identify.
The hormone ranges from one to another are a blur. Still, you gotta draw the line at the stock plumbing, me thinks. Life is not fair.

There are XXY and XYY folks out there which is another category.

 

[ScarySpikes]

World swimming bans transgender athletes from women's events

I don't think it's an unfair decision.

Thoughts?

It's a bad decision.

Sports organizations are allowing bigoted fear mongering to dictate their decision making processes instead of actual evidence and data. What the actual data shows is that after a few years on hormones, any performance advantage or disadvantage has become almost imperceptible. It also shows that, where trans women have been allowed to compete with cis women, they are not dominating the competition. A trans women who was competitive prior to transition can be competitive after transition, but not dominant.

For the people that agree with this decision, and similar decision, I do have a question. For a while now, a lot of organizations have allowed trans women to compete, usually after at least a year on HRT and with testosterone below a certain level. If trans women supposedly have such a massive advantage, where are the trans women dominating in those sports? Why are cis women about to not just keep up but beat the trans athletes very regularly?

 

[BURNROPE]

Make it like Drag Racing and have different classes. Include PED's with a top fueler class.

 

[Stix]

Good.

 

[James]

It's a bad decision.

Sports organizations are allowing bigoted fear mongering to dictate their decision making processes instead of actual evidence and data. What the actual data shows is that after a few years on hormones, any performance advantage or disadvantage has become almost imperceptible. It also shows that, where trans women have been allowed to compete with cis women, they are not dominating the competition. A trans women who was competitive prior to transition can be competitive after transition, but not dominant.

For the people that agree with this decision, and similar decision, I do have a question. For a while now, a lot of organizations have allowed trans women to compete, usually after at least a year on HRT and with testosterone below a certain level. If trans women supposedly have such a massive advantage, where are the trans women dominating in those sports? Why are cis women about to not just keep up but beat the trans athletes very regularly?

Yeah... Not answering any questions yet. But, observation: Your post doesn't seem like you have asked some basic questions of your thought. If you just sat and pondered your thoughts, I don't think you would ask that question.

 

[Blankpage]

It’s about time

 

[Kurosaki]

It's a bad decision.

Sports organizations are allowing bigoted fear mongering to dictate their decision making processes instead of actual evidence and data. What the actual data shows is that after a few years on hormones, any performance advantage or disadvantage has become almost imperceptible. It also shows that, where trans women have been allowed to compete with cis women, they are not dominating the competition. A trans women who was competitive prior to transition can be competitive after transition, but not dominant.

For the people that agree with this decision, and similar decision, I do have a question. For a while now, a lot of organizations have allowed trans women to compete, usually after at least a year on HRT and with testosterone below a certain level. If trans women supposedly have such a massive advantage, where are the trans women dominating in those sports? Why are cis women about to not just keep up but beat the trans athletes very regularly?

Nothing guarantees becoming a dominant athlete even with advantages others don't have. Lot of athletes, men and women, are on PEDs others can't afford, don't have access to, a way to pass drug tests, or some combination of all of the above. It doesn't automatically make them leaders in their sport.

Not to mention, the call to draw the line at puberty is a fair one to me. Regardless if someone transitions later in their life, there is growth of the human body in puberty that isn't just undone with HRT and measuring testosterone levels.

 

[NSR500]

Good

 

[ScarySpikes]

Nothing guarantees becoming a dominant athlete even with advantages others don't have. Lot of athletes, men and women, are on PEDs others can't afford, don't have access to, a way to pass drug tests, or some combination of all of the above. It doesn't automatically make them leaders in their sport.

Not to mention, the call to draw the line at puberty is a fair one to me. Regardless if someone transitions later in their life, there is growth of the human body in puberty that isn't just undone with HRT and measuring testosterone levels.

I don't think 'all the cis women are doping' is either true or an adequate answer to the question I asked.

Yeah... Not answering any questions yet. But, observation: Your post doesn't seem like you have asked some basic questions of your thought. If you just sat and pondered your thoughts, I don't think you would ask that question.

The question I asked, and you refused to answer, is meant to make you all think about whether there is any actual evidence that this problem even exists. I don't see it. Literally the closest is Lia Thomas, who won one NCAA event, who was a competitive swimmer prior to transitioning and whose swim times now are completely in line with what you would expect from a good, not even great, cis woman athlete. IE, she was competitive but not dominant prior to transitioning, she is competitive but not dominant now.


I'm curious, even assuming that there were an unfair advantage, which, again, it doesn't seem like there actually is, shouldn't this decision also mean that anyone with an unfair advantage due to their genes, body type, or whatever else, also be banned?

Should Michael Phelps be stripped of his medals because he is shaped so optimally for swimming and doesn't produce lactic acid at the same rate most people do? Should Usain Bolt have his taken away because his body naturally produces so much more twitch muscle which gives him a big advantage as a sprinter? Top level athletes are often physical freaks. They have advantages that can actually be measured and we can show how those advantages lead to them dominating the sport.

 

[951dude]

Thomas, 22, was a mediocre performer when she competed as a man, but is now a record-breaking phenomenon competing as a woman, winning some races by several whole laps of a pool.

I guess biology isn't science anymore, or some people select which science they want to ignore.

 

[Climber]

The question I asked, and you refused to answer, is meant to make you all think about whether there is any actual evidence that this problem even exists. I don't see it. Literally the closest is Lia Thomas, who won one NCAA event, who was a competitive swimmer prior to transitioning and whose swim times now are completely in line with what you would expect from a good, not even great, cis woman athlete. IE, she was competitive but not dominant prior to transitioning, she is competitive but not dominant now.


I'm curious, even assuming that there were an unfair advantage, which, again, it doesn't seem like there actually is, shouldn't this decision also mean that anyone with an unfair advantage due to their genes, body type, or whatever else, also be banned?

Should Michael Phelps be stripped of his medals because he is shaped so optimally for swimming and doesn't produce lactic acid at the same rate most people do? Should Usain Bolt have his taken away because his body naturally produces so much more twitch muscle which gives him a big advantage as a sprinter? Top level athletes are often physical freaks. They have advantages that can actually be measured and we can show how those advantages lead to them dominating the sport.

You're opening your mouth without even understanding the facts.

Try doing some research before you take a stance based on 'feelings'.

She went from ranked 550th among men to #1 among woemn in one event and top 10 in others. How is that not a HUGE advantage?

Here, read this for a better breakdown:
A Look At the Numbers and Times: No Denying the Advantages of Lia Thomas

 

[mikev]

I don't think 'all the cis women are doping' is either true or an adequate answer to the question I asked.



The question I asked, and you refused to answer, is meant to make you all think about whether there is any actual evidence that this problem even exists. I don't see it. Literally the closest is Lia Thomas, who won one NCAA event, who was a competitive swimmer prior to transitioning and whose swim times now are completely in line with what you would expect from a good, not even great, cis woman athlete. IE, she was competitive but not dominant prior to transitioning, she is competitive but not dominant now.


I'm curious, even assuming that there were an unfair advantage, which, again, it doesn't seem like there actually is, shouldn't this decision also mean that anyone with an unfair advantage due to their genes, body type, or whatever else, also be banned?

Should Michael Phelps be stripped of his medals because he is shaped so optimally for swimming and doesn't produce lactic acid at the same rate most people do? Should Usain Bolt have his taken away because his body naturally produces so much more twitch muscle which gives him a big advantage as a sprinter? Top level athletes are often physical freaks. They have advantages that can actually be measured and we can show how those advantages lead to them dominating the sport.

You don't think there's an advantage?

Do you understand why there are separate competitions for men and women in practically EVERY sport?

This is only an issue with MTF transitions, and not FTM. Why do you think that's the case?

A person's decision to transition is theirs, personally, to make. They also need to accept things will change.

To pile on with the example of Lia Thomas, if the "open" division was created already, it would be absolutely fucking dominated by men and Thomas would be an afterthought never coming close to a podium.

 

[ScarySpikes]

Thomas, 22, was a mediocre performer when she competed as a man, but is now a record-breaking phenomenon competing as a woman, winning some races by several whole laps of a pool.

I guess biology isn't science anymore, or some people select which science they want to ignore.

You're opening your mouth without even understanding the facts.

Try doing some research before you take a stance based on 'feelings'.

She went from ranked 550th among men to #1 among woemn in one event and top 10 in others. How is that not a HUGE advantage?

Here, read this for a better breakdown:
A Look At the Numbers and Times: No Denying the Advantages of Lia Thomas

I did the research, you found an article that agrees with you.

A simple read of her Wikipedia page reveals:

Thomas began swimming on the men's team at the University of Pennsylvania in 2017, and during her freshman year, recorded a time of 8 minutes and 57.55 seconds in the 1,000-yard freestyle that ranked as the sixth-fastest national men's time, as well as 500-yard freestyle and 1,650-yard freestyle times ranked within the national top 100.[4] On the men's swim team in 2018–2019, Thomas finished second in the men’s 500, 1,000, and 1,650-yard freestyle at the Ivy League championships as a sophomore in 2019.[4][3][7] During the 2018–2019 season, Thomas recorded the top university men's team times in the 500 free, 1000 free, and 1650 free.

Thomas lost muscle mass and strength through testosterone suppression and hormone replacement therapy. Her time for the 500 freestyle is over 15 seconds slower than her personal bests before medically transitioning.[12][13] Thomas's event progression peaked in 2019 for distance swimming, with a drop in times during the 2021–22 season. Her event progression for sprint swimming reflected a dip at the start of 2021–22 season before returning to near-lifetime bests in the 100 free and a lifetime personal best in the 50 free in 2021.[14]

In the 2018–2019 season she was, when competing in the men's team, ranked 554 in the 200 freestyle, 65 in the 500 freestyle, and 32 in the 1650 freestyle. In the 2021–2022 season, those ranks are now, when competing in the women's team, 5 in the 200 freestyle, first in the 500 freestyle, and eight in the 1650 freestyle.[15][16] According to an archived page of the swimming data website Swimcloud, Thomas was ranked 89th among male college swimmers for that season.[17]

In a race during January 2022 at a meet against UPenn's Ivy League rival Yale, Thomas finished in 6th place in the 100m freestyle race, losing to four cisgender women and Iszac Henig, a transgender man, who transitioned without hormone therapy.[18][19]

In March 2022, Thomas became the first openly transgender athlete to win an NCAA Division I national championship in any sport, after winning the women's 500-yard freestyle with a time of 4:33.24; Olympic silver medalist Emma Weyant was second with a time 1.75 seconds behind Thomas.[20][21][22] Thomas did not break any records at the NCAA event, while Kate Douglass broke 18 NCAA records.[23] Thomas was 9.18 seconds short of Katie Ledecky's NCAA record of 4:24.06.[24] In the preliminaries for the 200 freestyle, Thomas finished second. In the final for the 200 freestyle, Thomas placed fifth with a time of 1:43.50. In the preliminaries for the 100 freestyle, Thomas finished tenth. In the finals for the 100 freestyle, Thomas placed eighth out of eight competitors in 48.18 seconds, finishing last.[25]

The March 2022 NCAA championship was Thomas's last college swimming event.[26] By the conclusion of Thomas's swimming career at UPenn in 2022, her rank had moved from 65th on the men's team to 1st on the women's team in the 500-yard freestyle, and 554th on the men's team to 5th on the women's team in the 200-yard freestyle.[27][15] According to the swimming data website Swimcloud, Thomas is ranked 36th among female college swimmers in the United States for the 2021–2022 season,[28] and 46th among women swimmers nationally.[29] According to Sports Illustrated, she has applied for law school and plans to swim at the 2024 Summer Olympics trials.[2]

Look at her performance in 2017. Prior to starting transitioning, in the 2017 season, she was among the best swimmers in the country, and this was as a freshman. She was in no way 'mediocre'. In 2018, she continued to be one of the best in the country, and the best at her school in multiple races.

In 2019, she started on HRT. Her stats times and stats plummeted, her rank moved down to 554th in 200 yard freestyle at UPenn, 65th in the 500 yard freestyle. That's a pretty good demonstration of the effect HRT has on the body. When she was taking T blockers and estrogen, she went from being incredibly competitive in the men's division, to mediocre within the men's division, which is completely expected considering how much HRT fucks with the body. I wonder why your article didn't mention that they were comparing her times when on HRT but still competing in the men's division. I also wonder why they chose to make that comparison, when the much more obvious and fair comparison is her performance competing in the men's division prior to starting HRT and transitioning, and her performance competing in the woman's division after having been on HRT for a couple of years.

Her rank, and times relative to her competitors as a woman are completely in line with her rank and times relative to her competitors when competing as a man before she started HRT. This is not a case of going from mediocre to one of the best, it's a case of going from one of the best, to one of the best.

 

[Blankpage]

Michael Phelps should be stripped of his medals had he won them competing against women.
If your advantage is that you’ve lived 95% of your life as a man before deciding to compete against women than that’s an unfair advantage.

 

[Kurosaki]

I don't think 'all the cis women are doping' is either true or an adequate answer to the question I asked.

Where did I say all cis women are doping? You were making some point about the competitiveness of cis vs trans women and trans women are not always dominating the competitions. There's WAY more at play than just assuming an assertation that a trans woman is going to be a destroyer of her competition.

I don't see where there's any argument to be had that if a man's body has been developing since puberty until whichever age he decides to transition, that's a huge advantage but's not a guarantee they will be some world class athlete.

To actually make a point to that, a decade or so ago, there was a trans fighter named Fallon Fox. Her MMA career was pretty short and her only loss was to a cis woman that was a flat out better trained athlete. That doesn't mean we should not consider the advantages that she had as a developed man before transitioning. The only women she beat were those that don't even have wikipedia pages and by that, I mean they were scrubs.

I'm all for trans rights, and drawing the line at puberty is logical in my view and probably the best it's gonna get. For those, on either side, that aren't interested in the logic of the situation and just want all or nothing, well that's likely never going to happen.

 

[ScarySpikes]

Where did I say all cis women are doping? You were making some point about the competitiveness of cis vs trans women and trans women are not always dominating the competitions. There's WAY more at play than just assuming an assertation that a trans woman is going to be a destroyer of her competition.

I don't see where there's any argument to be had that if a man's body has been developing since puberty until whichever age he decides to transition, that's a huge advantage but's not a guarantee they will be some world class athlete.

To actually make a point to that, a decade or so ago, there was a trans fighter named Fallon Fox. Her MMA career was pretty short and her only loss was to a cis woman that was a flat out better trained athlete. That doesn't mean we should not consider the advantages that she had as a developed man before transitioning. The only women she beat were those that don't even have wikipedia pages and by that, I mean they were scrubs.

I'm all for trans rights, and drawing the line at puberty is logical in my view and probably the best it's gonna get. For those, on either side, that aren't interested in the logic of the situation and just want all or nothing, well that's likely never going to happen.

I read your initial comment as implying that the reason trans women aren't dominating is that cis women have access to PEDs. If that wasn't the intent, I'm not sure what else you were trying to get at.

Fallon Fox was beaten by a woman with a pretty mediocre 6-5 record in MMA. I remember the fight vaguely, I don't think either appeared to be massively more skilled or more physically capable than the other.

I think a lot of people just don't understand how dramatic a change HRT makes, trans women, after being on HRT for several months, become dramatically weaker, their testosterone levels often end up lower than the average cis woman's, let alone the testosterone levels of a top level athlete. Their ability to maintain and put on muscle drops dramatically. The people talking about this as though HRT is no big deal and doesn't change things probably don't know anyone who has gone through it.

In terms of why the puberty thing is not really fair. First, age 12 isn't puberty for everyone. That number is very arbitrary. Second, again, there's not really any evidence that this is the problem. The best people can cite to is Lea Thomas but as I showed previously, if you actually look at her performance prior to starting HRT, her performance now doesn't seem that outlandish. Third, probably most important. Look at the laws being passed in many states, and indeed, many countries, denying children access to gender affirming care, even going as far to call the parents child abusers and try to take the kids away. Obviously getting gender affirming care by age 12 is not going to be possible for many people, so putting in this barrier effectively denies them the ability to compete at all.

The Olympics methodology of looking at T levels, while flawed, is far more sane.

 

[littlebeast]

interesting subject. the governing bodies are needing to govern - but the difficulties are understandable considering the uncharted territory.

that said, it would be cool if the conversation could be rational.

quick search on ‘will’ v. ‘lea’ times - best i could come up with for comparison pre and post transition was 200 free (1:40.75 v. 1:43.12) and 50 free (20.66 v. 22.78). approximately 1.5% and 10.3% difference respectively (correct my math if you are inclined, as i suck at it lol). WRT swimming in general, the longer the distance, the more equivalent men and women become (competitively). and over very long distances - women tend to gain the advantage (due to various physiology). and yeah - both 200 and 50 are still in the sprint range, but the numbers correlate in the right direction.

point being - lot’s yet to be known. don’t envy those trying to sort it out. or the athletes just trying to do what they do while all that figuring out is going on.

on another note - asked my SO his opinion (swimmer who missed making the US olympic team by a few hundreds of a second). he said he didn’t have one (unlike many who have no direct experience or vested interest). bias is a bitch.

 

[Kurosaki]

I read your initial comment as implying that the reason trans women aren't dominating is that cis women have access to PEDs. If that wasn't the intent, I'm not sure what else you were trying to get at.

Fallon Fox was beaten by a woman with a pretty mediocre 6-5 record in MMA. I remember the fight vaguely, I don't think either appeared to be massively more skilled or more physically capable than the other.

I think a lot of people just don't understand how dramatic a change HRT makes, trans women, after being on HRT for several months, become dramatically weaker, their testosterone levels often end up lower than the average cis woman's, let alone the testosterone levels of a top level athlete. Their ability to maintain and put on muscle drops dramatically. The people talking about this as though HRT is no big deal and doesn't change things probably don't know anyone who has gone through it.

In terms of why the puberty thing is not really fair. First, age 12 isn't puberty for everyone. That number is very arbitrary. Second, again, there's not really any evidence that this is the problem. The best people can cite to is Lea Thomas but as I showed previously, if you actually look at her performance prior to starting HRT, her performance now doesn't seem that outlandish. Third, probably most important. Look at the laws being passed in many states, and indeed, many countries, denying children access to gender affirming care, even going as far to call the parents child abusers and try to take the kids away. Obviously getting gender affirming care by age 12 is not going to be possible for many people, so putting in this barrier effectively denies them the ability to compete at all.

The Olympics methodology of looking at T levels, while flawed, is far more sane.

My point about Fallon Fox was really helping you. Evans-Smith record wasn't great but she went on to having some decent fights with much better quality fighters than the cans Fox crushed in regional event. Being a trans women didn't make her a boogeywoman because she wasn't a good fighter. That doesn't change the fact that transitioning at the time she did gave her advantages cis women didn't have. She wasn't a good fighter but if she was cis with her skill, she'd likely be less than that making 100 dollars to fight in the banquet room of a Motel 6.

Also, it's not really a debate that men and women develop differently in the puberty stages, such as bone structure, density, etc. If you've gone through teenage and early adulthood years as a man and transition, you've got unfair advantages compared to cis women. You can't undo the development of body and skeletal structure of a person with HRT. Muscle mass, sure, but as far as someone's skeletal structure, what's done is done.

It's for a different reason here but it's not like kids/teen sports don't have age groups (depending on the sport weight limits too) already in place. If anyone has played junior sports, or has a kid that plays sports, there's always that kid who got their growth spurt overnight before others and looks like a giant compared to everyone else. There's not a definitive number but the line has to be drawn somewhere.

I haven't said a single word about Lea Thomas. An extreme example she is but an example nonetheless and I don't need her to make any points that age 12 was the right call. Maybe the age could have been 13 or 14.

Either way, drawing a line at puberty is agreeable to me but obviously that specific age is not going to be "one size fits all". I don't want to talk through it for 10 pages, not because I'm stubborn but because previous discussions of allowing trans women to compete or not, not just on BARF, didn't have much middle ground. I'm fine with what's been decided here. Pretty much all I've gotta say.