World swimming bans transgender women from competing

[byke]

Scary, I think you have difficulty finding nuance once there's any overlap between the thing the shitty person wants and what the decent person wants. Like if hitler wanted a more domestic economy, then anyone that wants a domestic economy must be hitler.

 

[TylerW]

It's your perception of the truth.

We all understand that you support transgender women and I don't think that there are a ton of people in the KS who are against them, but when they use their physical advantage to compete against women who were born women then there can be discussion. If they went into motor sports, there would be no argument and their competitiveness would be pretty much the same.

Men do have a physical advantage in many sports, just look at the world records in some sports, they aren't physically the same. Even after transitioning, there is residual advantages that aren't going to completely go away.

And, for the record, I'm 100% behind a woman's right to choose and think it's disgusting that one group is trying to take that decision away from them.

Yes, I have perceived that people don't care about women's sports unless a transgender woman wants to compete. There is significant evidence to support this observation, and very little to refute it.

You don't know how much I'd like to be wrong about this - unfortunately the overwhelming evidence has led me to different conclusions. This isn't about preserving women's sports.

This is about something else.

 

[mean dad]

Because its the truth.

There's been more threads about transgender women in sports in the past two years than there have been threads discussing women's sports in the entire history of barf.

If you think I'm wrong, prove it.

Kindly get the fuck out with that bullshit.

If we pretend your statement is 100% accurate, it ONLY means that there have been more threads on one topic than the other.
It absolutely does not mean "this is the only time men care about women's sports". At best it means "BARFers are more interested in discussing transgender issues than women's sports on this particular forum".

"If you think this is not the only time men care about women's sports then it's up to you to disprove my claim even though it is unequivocally my responsibility to prove my own ludicrous claim".

Fucking laughable.

 

[James]

Yes, I have perceived that people don't care about women's sports unless a transgender woman wants to compete. There is significant evidence to support this observation, and very little to refute it.

You don't know how much I'd like to be wrong about this - unfortunately the overwhelming evidence has led me to different conclusions. This isn't about preserving women's sports.

This is about something else.

Dude, I haven't seen much participation from you, specifically, in the sports threads. I am not jumping to the conclusion that you have less passion than anyone else. But, you are vocal here. And to make it more entertaining, you are projecting assumptions that have zero evidence to support.

I agree with you: Women's sports typically don't present highlights.

I believe there is a good reason to have classes of sports. From the elite level to the beer leagues. Those classes can have parameters that the organizers see fit. We are seeing large organizers navigate this specific issue that hasn't been around as long as the sports themselves. If you feel that it "Is about something else." That is you hyper focusing on an aspect you have created in your mind and it is clear you aren't actually listening to other opinions. I don't see that you are addressing all of the factors to be considered. Merely, harping on your pet initiatives.

 

[msethhunter]

It's a bad decision.

Sports organizations are allowing bigoted fear mongering to dictate their decision making processes instead of actual evidence and data. What the actual data shows is that after a few years on hormones, any performance advantage or disadvantage has become almost imperceptible. It also shows that, where trans women have been allowed to compete with cis women, they are not dominating the competition. A trans women who was competitive prior to transition can be competitive after transition, but not dominant.

For the people that agree with this decision, and similar decision, I do have a question. For a while now, a lot of organizations have allowed trans women to compete, usually after at least a year on HRT and with testosterone below a certain level. If trans women supposedly have such a massive advantage, where are the trans women dominating in those sports? Why are cis women about to not just keep up but beat the trans athletes very regularly?

Sex is not gender. Just because someone identifies as a woman doesn’t make them biologically one. That’s not bigoted, that’s science. Plain and simple.

 

[ScarySpikes]

To the point I brought up about Fallon Fox, she was a shit fighter. How do I know? Because I've seen her fights and the women she fought against. I've seen better amateur fights at casinos. If you want to challenge my knowledge of following MMA, not just UFC like most casual fans, I don't think that's gonna help your argument. Being a woman transitioning to a woman IS AN ADVANTAGE unfair to cis women. It just is. It's not any disdain against trans women.

You can tell me I'm wrong til you're blue in the face but of the trans women I've met, the later they transition, the more they physically appear more masculine, no matter what outfit, wig, and makeup they use. Bigger hands, tall, broad shoulders, etc. Spend a lot of money on surgical procedures or just don't care that kinda thing and present themselves as they are. Not speaking on it as if I'm an authority on anything trans, just anecdotal. You're viewpoint comes off as if you know trans women, I or others don't, and your research and anecdotal experiences back that up. My anecdotal experience is just as valid as yours. They knew they were women in a man's body, any heart felt explanation to me or others, but what something I never heard was worrying about a crisis of competing in sports versus being open and seeking help and acceptance from friends and family at such a young age. Even still, extensive hormone treatment for anyone near the puberty stage is a slippery slope and I'll admit I may go back and forth in that grey area but ultimately if puberty is the line the sand to draw, then so be it. The article even says it's not promoting people rush to transition before age 12. Most cis men and women don't know what the hell to do with their hormones during puberty anyway.

Also a huge fallacy that no one cares about kid/teen sports. PED use in high school sports has become a huge problem. A ton of people care about kid/teen sports. If you are good enough as a high school freshman, still a kid maybe 13, and talented enough, you can be put on a varsity team and it is not uncommon at all for high school sports athletes to be shot up with PEDs, to be pressured to just take it to compete or heal/perform with injury.

If you want to flip the conversation, why aren't we having this discussion about men who transition to female? It's always about men who transition to female. Is there some lady that transitioned to being a female and starting racking up track and field medals? Unless I read the regulations wrong, there's nothing stopping women that transitioned to male from competing with men. Why is that? Ever seen the movie Unnecessary Roughness, great movie, where the kicker is a woman? My high school JV football team had a girl on a the squad. She was good but not that good but determined.

Please tell me you did not in all honesty try to make a comparison of cis black women competing against other cis women to trans women competing against cis women. You are much better than that. I wouldn't even be debating with you if I didn't think so. Walk that one back, dude. Please.



Nope, wouldn't even want that. Different physical attributes are better suited to different sports. Unless you've got the talent of Muggsy Boges or Spudd Webb, basketball might not be the sport for you if you want to go far. But if you're a 7 foot tall clumsy guy that can be taught, good chance some team has a place for you.

On Fallon Fox, I watched her fights too. I don't think her, or her opponents, looked particularly skilled, but it also doesn't look like she is massively more physically capable than her opponents. Looking at a more recent case, Alana Mclaughlin, who is currently 1-0. A whole bunch of people saw a photo of her sized up next to her opponent:

A whole bunch of transphobes complained about how unfair it is that the big, tall trans woman was fighting the shorter, smaller cis woman. Since you know MMA, you should know why that statement is ridiculously stupid. However, it does go to the point about physicality. The idea that trans people are always going to have some massive advantage physically isn't true. In this case, sorry, you can talk all you want about bone density, size and reach really does matter, and decides a fuck ton of fights, the taller cis woman has an advantage against the shorter trans woman.

The article does say that it's not rushing people to transition by age 12, which is why what they are essentially doing is banning trans people from competing. The vast majority of trans people don't start transition that early, not because they don't know they are trans by then, but because of family and social pressures, and it's something that there is nothing they can do about. The Olympic committees rules dictating I think 2 or 3 years of HRT treatment and a testosterone level below a certain amount makes a lot more sense. The only rub on it is that from my understanding the testosterone levels they want to see are actually lower than average testosterone levels in cis women.

The kids sports I thought we were talking about was things like summer soccer leagues and the like. I wasn't referring to High School sports.

I can think of a very apt case of a trans boy who was forced to compete against girls in high school wrestling. He really did absolutely dominate, and it was BS that he was not allowed to compete against other boys, which is what he wanted. With that being said, the first time a trans man beats a cis man in a prominent competitive sport, how much do you want to bet that someone will come in talking about how unfair it is that someone who is taking testosterone is competing.

In terms of looking at height, or looking at race. I think it's absolutely outrageous to ban a small minority of the population from taking part due due to perceived or real advantages they might have in the sport. I think that standard ought to trans people too.

I coached girls sports for years, and other youth sports as well


theres no enough transgender athletes for such a blanket decision. its such an outrageously small number of people. we have to take into account how few trans people there are, then how few decide to play sports, and then how many of those are GOOD at sports

its should be a case by case decision via established committee


the unspoken issue here is how sports have become the only venue for many families to afford higher education, and how its how viewed than trans women could be "stealing" that from a girl

The laws that some states are passing banning trans women from playing (and they all focus on trans women specifically) often literally target either one person or only a handful of people in the entire state.

My stance on the higher education part is pretty simple. College ought to be tuition free. Simple as that.

Oddly I cannot find a poll of female athletes on the issue.

It seems to me it is their decision, not that of the public at large.

Anecdotally, other women swimmers talking about Lea Thomas:

Brooke Forde, an Olympic silver medalist, said of Thomas that: "I believe that treating people with respect and dignity is more important than any trophy or record will ever be, which is why I will not have a problem racing against Lia at NCAAs this year".[10][39] Another swimmer, Olympic silver medalist Erica Sullivan, spoke in support of Thomas in an opinion piece for Newsweek: "like anyone else in this sport, Lia has trained diligently to get to where she is and has followed all of the rules and guidelines put before her ... she doesn't win every time. And when she does, she deserves, like anyone else in this sport, to be celebrated for her hard-won success, not labeled a cheater simply because of her identity."

 

[kevin 714]

With that being said, the first time a trans man beats a cis man in a prominent competitive sport, how much do you want to bet that someone will come in talking about how unfair it is that someone who is taking testosterone is competing.

at.

i'm a large proponent of trans rights, and consider my self quite progressive

this isnt going to happen. like ever. in any prominent truly physical sport, a good teenage boy is better than the top tier adult women.

 

[msethhunter]

i'm a large proponent of trans rights, and consider my self quite progressive

this isnt going to happen. like ever. in any prominent truly physical sport, a good teenage boy is better than the top tier adult women.

An average teenage boy is better than a good teenage girl, and can usually compete with the top tier girls.

Just one example of the difference between boys and girls in sports.

Boys CIF *110M* *High Hurdles* record is 13.1. Hurdles are 39” tall.

Girls CIF *100M* *High Hurdles* record is 13.03. Hurdles are 33” tall.

Shorter track, shorter hurdles, nearly identical times

Biology isn’t identity. Even with years of transitioning, the advantage will still remain. Life isn’t fair. Transitioning and having that bar you from competing in sports is part of that choice, as harsh as that sounds, is reality.

For anyone who says “there’s no evidence”, you’re not paying attention. There’s plenty of examples available now that show otherwise. Female weight lifters who were average men that now dominate because they’re women, male fighter’s who now dominate because they’re women, and now swimmers. By dominate I am speaking to competing at the top level, not necessarily kicking everyone’s ass in their chose sport.

There is a good reason why we don’t see the same push for trans men competing in mens sports having an unfair advantage. Because they don’t, and they never will.

 

[byke]

Everyone knows that men are generally stronger and better at sports than women. White men usually have no problem admitting that. But! The makeup of white and black men in pro sports does not represent the population. Does that mean that white men are basically black men's women..??

 

[Climber]

I have much more compassion for Caster Semenya, an 800m runner who was born with both women's and men's parts, including internal testes that produce testoserone naturally.

The testoserone development gave her a distinct advantage and they imposed a requirement to reduce her testoserone level in order to compete.

This wasn't a choice she made, it was the way she was born, but it did give her an advantage. Interestingly, there was at least one other woman in the 800m who had similar elevated testoserone levels due to a similar background. Why they both ended up in the 800m race is interesting.

 

[kevin 714]

Everyone knows that men are generally stronger and better at sports than women. White men usually have no problem admitting that. But! The makeup of white and black men in pro sports does not represent the population. Does that mean that white men are basically black men's women..??

Black peoples are disproportionately represented in certain American sports (but massively under represented in others) due to cultural and socioeconomic issues that funnel them towards sports that require less access to specialized tools, facilities, training centers and required equipment.

There’s no general physical component to this, it’s not an apt analogy.

 

[msethhunter]

Everyone knows that men are generally stronger and better at sports than women. White men usually have no problem admitting that. But! The makeup of white and black men in pro sports does not represent the population. Does that mean that white men are basically black men's women..??

Nope, but you bring up an interesting point. One that’s also been proven by science. Black men and women are also superior partly because of genetic differences in where they come from (“only the strong survive”) in Africa, and the way slave owners forced them to breed to create strong slaves for the next generation.

 

[Climber]

Black peoples are disproportionately represented in certain American sports (but massively under represented in others) due to cultural and socioeconomic issues that funnel them towards sports that require less access to specialized tools, facilities, training centers and required equipment.

There’s no general physical component to this, it’s not an apt analogy.

I don't know if you're aware that people are born with a fast twitch to slow twitch ratio that determines who will be a faster sprinter. This is not a ratio that you can change with any amount of training. People born with a higher slow twitch to fast twitch ratio are better in the distance races where endurance is required.

 

[kevin 714]

Nope, but you bring up an interesting point. One that’s also been proven by science. Black men and women are also superior partly because of genetic differences in where they come from (“only the strong survive”) in Africa, and the way slave owners forced them to breed to create strong slaves for the next generation.

This just isn’t the case and this kind of old school pseudo racism and “magical black man” talk really shouldnt be perpetuated on barf

 

[byke]

Black peoples are disproportionately represented in certain American sports (but massively under represented in others) due to cultural and socioeconomic issues that funnel them towards sports that require less access to specialized tools, facilities, training centers and required equipment.

There’s no general physical component to this, it’s not an apt analogy.

I want to hear from a black man, not the black man's woman.

 

[Climber]

This just isn’t the case and this kind of old school pseudo racism and “magical black man” talk really should be perpetuated on barf

two groups of people, many centuries with mate selection governed by two very different priorities, one based on the ability to make money, the other based upon physical capabilities. You don't think that one would produce better athletes than the other?

And before you (or anybody else) goes there, business prowress isn't a greater demand or development of intelligence, going out hunting does require as much intelligence (for good ones) as running a business. That's where stupid people (racists) get lost in trying to claim that Africans aren't as smart as Europeans, kind of like fat girls like to believe that skinny girls are stupid in order to make themselves feel better about themselves.

 

[GAJ]

There is a good reason why we don’t see the same push for trans men competing in mens sports having an unfair advantage. Because they don’t, and they never will.

Good point.

 

[HappyHighwayman]

One would think they would get the opinion, you know, of the actual athletes themselves!

Any governing body worth its salt would want the input of the participants; happens all the time in other sports.

Why would you think that? They never have before. You think the Olympic committee gives a F about athletes?

They didn't start the organization to benefit the athletes.

 

[msethhunter]

This just isn’t the case and this kind of old school pseudo racism and “magical black man” talk really shouldnt be perpetuated on barf

So you’re going to say that slave owners didn’t do exactly that? They literally had “slave farms” where they would select “mates”. It’s called systemic breeding. It happened, as ugly as it is, and pointing out history doesn’t make me racist racist for it. It’s no different than a dwarf parent being much more likely to pass that gene on and have dwarf children. We are all the product of our parents, and their racism isn’t mine.

 

[ScarySpikes]

i'm a large proponent of trans rights, and consider my self quite progressive

this isnt going to happen. like ever. in any prominent truly physical sport, a good teenage boy is better than the top tier adult women.

In quite a few sports, where men's records have been threatened by women competing, rules have been put in place to sandbag the women. Caster Semenya is a good example, arbitrarily limiting her from competing at her natural testosterone levels. Another example is all marathon running, where women are now not allowed to have male pace setters, even though men are allowed that. Fair bet that if and when a trans man completes and wins in a marathon, they'll find a way to enact a ban.

In figure skating, 1902, a woman competed in the Olympics and won the silver medal in figure skating, she was the first woman in the, at the time male dominated but open to all sport. In 1903, women were banned from the sport, and in 1905, they segregated the sport to men's and women's competitions. Do you think that if a trans man started winning in male figure skating, they wouldn't find a way to ban?

You might not regard it as 'truly physical' but shooting is another sport where women started threatening men's dominance in what were open leagues, then were relegated to a women's only league. In Barcelona, 1992, a woman won the gold medal in skeet shooting. In 1996, women were banned, in 2000, They created a separate women's league that had fewer targets. Again, fair bet that if/when a trans man starts beating out cis men in shooting, they will find a way to ban them.