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World swimming bans transgender women from competing

I don't think I have ever in my life watched competitive swimming outside the olympics with very little interest even then.

I certainly have never tried to compete in it or have any plans to.

I can see no reason at all to give any shits about this. :dunno
 
I don't think I have ever in my life watched competitive swimming outside the olympics with very little interest even then.

I certainly have never tried to compete in it or have any plans to.

I can see no reason at all to give any shits about this. :dunno

lol - changing subjects - someone forwarded a twitter feed that reminded me of you. ‘orc who gets laid off from rampaging across the countryside and has to get a new job as a high school teacher’ (@SamSykesSwears).

‘Principal Stevens. What purpose calls you here?’

‘Mr. Lewis says you split his desk in two with an axe again.’

‘Mr. Lewis parked in my spot again. A warrior gives warning only once.’

‘Jesus Christ Ted, you ride a giant WOLF to work. It doesn’t even stay in your space!’

and…

‘Hello, is this Mr. Bloodmaw?’

‘Superintendent Richards. You received my request for additional funding for our library?’

‘I received a banner of flayed skin impaled on my front lawn at dawn. Was that you?’

‘Did it have ten skulls on it?’

‘It did.’

‘Then yes, it was me.’
 
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My point about Fallon Fox was really helping you. Evans-Smith record wasn't great but she went on to having some decent fights with much better quality fighters than the cans Fox crushed in regional event. Being a trans women didn't make her a boogeywoman because she wasn't a good fighter. That doesn't change the fact that transitioning at the time she did gave her advantages cis women didn't have. She wasn't a good fighter but if she was cis with her skill, she'd likely be less than that making 100 dollars to fight in the banquet room of a Motel 6.
Who says she wasn't a good fighter? who says that being trans was the reason she was competitive? Honestly, her case is an extreme in the other direction. she had been on HRT for over a decade and had bottom surgery, which meant her testosterone levels were way lower than an average cis woman. You are starting with the assumption that being trans is an advantage and going from there.
Also, it's not really a debate that men and women develop differently in the puberty stages, such as bone structure, density, etc. If you've gone through teenage and early adulthood years as a man and transition, you've got unfair advantages compared to cis women. You can't undo the development of body and skeletal structure of a person with HRT. Muscle mass, sure, but as far as someone's skeletal structure, what's done is done.
So, first, you are wrong in saying that bone density can't change. Some drugs, including ones commonly used in transitioning, do effect bone density a little bit. Also, a lot of things effect bone structure. A girl who takes up dancing as a kid can end up permanently changing the bone structure of their legs because of how they are expected to stand. Do dancers have an unfair advantage too? Third, you are assuming that more male bone structure and density is superior, that's not really a fair assumption either, there are advantages and disadvantages to both.
It's for a different reason here but it's not like kids/teen sports don't have age groups (depending on the sport weight limits too) already in place. If anyone has played junior sports, or has a kid that plays sports, there's always that kid who got their growth spurt overnight before others and looks like a giant compared to everyone else. There's not a definitive number but the line has to be drawn somewhere.
You are correct, there is a different reason. No one cares about kids/teen sports actually being competitive. Those are generally more about socialization and making friends, and especially as kids it's easier to have friends who are about the same age, who you might share a class with in school, etc. A kid who goes through a growth sport doesn't get kicked off the soccer team, I don't see the relevance here.
I haven't said a single word about Lea Thomas. An extreme example she is but an example nonetheless and I don't need her to make any points that age 12 was the right call. Maybe the age could have been 13 or 14.

Either way, drawing a line at puberty is agreeable to me but obviously that specific age is not going to be "one size fits all". I don't want to talk through it for 10 pages, not because I'm stubborn but because previous discussions of allowing trans women to compete or not, not just on BARF, didn't have much middle ground. I'm fine with what's been decided here. Pretty much all I've gotta say.

Again, it's a big problem when you are talking about care that is routinely denied to children. The Olympics choice to look at how long someone has been on HRT and their T levels makes a lot more sense in terms of keeping fair competition while being inclusive.

Let's flip this a little bit. What if the sports association decided that they thought black women had an inherent advantage over other women, and thus denied them the ability to compete, or only allowed them to compete in an 'open class'? Would you ever, ever think that was acceptable, even if there actually was substantial evidence of the inherent advantage?
 
Who says she wasn't a good fighter? who says that being trans was the reason she was competitive? Honestly, her case is an extreme in the other direction. she had been on HRT for over a decade and had bottom surgery, which meant her testosterone levels were way lower than an average cis woman. You are starting with the assumption that being trans is an advantage and going from there.

So, first, you are wrong in saying that bone density can't change. Some drugs, including ones commonly used in transitioning, do effect bone density a little bit. Also, a lot of things effect bone structure. A girl who takes up dancing as a kid can end up permanently changing the bone structure of their legs because of how they are expected to stand. Do dancers have an unfair advantage too? Third, you are assuming that more male bone structure and density is superior, that's not really a fair assumption either, there are advantages and disadvantages to both.

You are correct, there is a different reason. No one cares about kids/teen sports actually being competitive. Those are generally more about socialization and making friends, and especially as kids it's easier to have friends who are about the same age, who you might share a class with in school, etc. A kid who goes through a growth sport doesn't get kicked off the soccer team, I don't see the relevance here.


Again, it's a big problem when you are talking about care that is routinely denied to children. The Olympics choice to look at how long someone has been on HRT and their T levels makes a lot more sense in terms of keeping fair competition while being inclusive.

Let's flip this a little bit. What if the sports association decided that they thought black women had an inherent advantage over other women, and thus denied them the ability to compete, or only allowed them to compete in an 'open class'? Would you ever, ever think that was acceptable, even if there actually was substantial evidence of the inherent advantage?

a better counter argument would be height. every sport has it’s own unique physiological advantages, and one of those closely associated with swimming is height. look it up. and for reference, michael phelps is 6’4”.
 
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lol - changing subjects - someone forwarded a twitter feed that reminded me of you. ‘orc who gets laid off from rampaging across the countryside and has to get a new job as a high school teacher’ (@SamSykesSwears).

‘Principal Stevens. What purpose calls you here?’

‘Mr. Lewis says you split his desk in two with an axe again.’

‘Mr. Lewis parked in my spot again. A warrior gives warning only once.’

‘Jesus Christ Ted, you ride a giant WOLF to work. It doesn’t even stay in your space!’

and…

‘Hello, is this Mr. Bloodmaw?’

‘Superintendent Richards. You received my request for additional funding for our library?’

‘I received a banner of flayed skin impaled on my front lawn at dawn. Was that you?’

‘Did it have ten skulls on it?’

‘It did.’

‘Then yes, it was me.’

:laughing I like it. :laughing
 
Who says she wasn't a good fighter? who says that being trans was the reason she was competitive? Honestly, her case is an extreme in the other direction. she had been on HRT for over a decade and had bottom surgery, which meant her testosterone levels were way lower than an average cis woman. You are starting with the assumption that being trans is an advantage and going from there.

So, first, you are wrong in saying that bone density can't change. Some drugs, including ones commonly used in transitioning, do effect bone density a little bit. Also, a lot of things effect bone structure. A girl who takes up dancing as a kid can end up permanently changing the bone structure of their legs because of how they are expected to stand. Do dancers have an unfair advantage too? Third, you are assuming that more male bone structure and density is superior, that's not really a fair assumption either, there are advantages and disadvantages to both.

You are correct, there is a different reason. No one cares about kids/teen sports actually being competitive. Those are generally more about socialization and making friends, and especially as kids it's easier to have friends who are about the same age, who you might share a class with in school, etc. A kid who goes through a growth sport doesn't get kicked off the soccer team, I don't see the relevance here.


Again, it's a big problem when you are talking about care that is routinely denied to children. The Olympics choice to look at how long someone has been on HRT and their T levels makes a lot more sense in terms of keeping fair competition while being inclusive.

Let's flip this a little bit. What if the sports association decided that they thought black women had an inherent advantage over other women, and thus denied them the ability to compete, or only allowed them to compete in an 'open class'? Would you ever, ever think that was acceptable, even if there actually was substantial evidence of the inherent advantage?

To the point I brought up about Fallon Fox, she was a shit fighter. How do I know? Because I've seen her fights and the women she fought against. I've seen better amateur fights at casinos. If you want to challenge my knowledge of following MMA, not just UFC like most casual fans, I don't think that's gonna help your argument. Being a woman transitioning to a woman IS AN ADVANTAGE unfair to cis women. It just is. It's not any disdain against trans women.

You can tell me I'm wrong til you're blue in the face but of the trans women I've met, the later they transition, the more they physically appear more masculine, no matter what outfit, wig, and makeup they use. Bigger hands, tall, broad shoulders, etc. Spend a lot of money on surgical procedures or just don't care that kinda thing and present themselves as they are. Not speaking on it as if I'm an authority on anything trans, just anecdotal. You're viewpoint comes off as if you know trans women, I or others don't, and your research and anecdotal experiences back that up. My anecdotal experience is just as valid as yours. They knew they were women in a man's body, any heart felt explanation to me or others, but what something I never heard was worrying about a crisis of competing in sports versus being open and seeking help and acceptance from friends and family at such a young age. Even still, extensive hormone treatment for anyone near the puberty stage is a slippery slope and I'll admit I may go back and forth in that grey area but ultimately if puberty is the line the sand to draw, then so be it. The article even says it's not promoting people rush to transition before age 12. Most cis men and women don't know what the hell to do with their hormones during puberty anyway.

Also a huge fallacy that no one cares about kid/teen sports. PED use in high school sports has become a huge problem. A ton of people care about kid/teen sports. If you are good enough as a high school freshman, still a kid maybe 13, and talented enough, you can be put on a varsity team and it is not uncommon at all for high school sports athletes to be shot up with PEDs, to be pressured to just take it to compete or heal/perform with injury.

If you want to flip the conversation, why aren't we having this discussion about men who transition to female? It's always about men who transition to female. Is there some lady that transitioned to being a female and starting racking up track and field medals? Unless I read the regulations wrong, there's nothing stopping women that transitioned to male from competing with men. Why is that? Ever seen the movie Unnecessary Roughness, great movie, where the kicker is a woman? My high school JV football team had a girl on a the squad. She was good but not that good but determined.

Please tell me you did not in all honesty try to make a comparison of cis black women competing against other cis women to trans women competing against cis women. You are much better than that. I wouldn't even be debating with you if I didn't think so. Walk that one back, dude. Please.

a better counter argument would be height. every sport has it’s own unique physiological advantages, and one of those closely associated with swimming is height. look it up. and for reference, michael phelps is 6’4”.

Nope, wouldn't even want that. Different physical attributes are better suited to different sports. Unless you've got the talent of Muggsy Boges or Spudd Webb, basketball might not be the sport for you if you want to go far. But if you're a 7 foot tall clumsy guy that can be taught, good chance some team has a place for you.
 
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Michael Phelps should be stripped of his medals had he won them competing against women.
If your advantage is that you’ve lived 95% of your life as a man before deciding to compete against women than that’s an unfair advantage.

If we're stripping medals based on biological advantage, Michael Phelps should be stripped of ALL of his medals. He has a clear and dominant biological advantage over his competition.
 
This is the only time that men care about women's sports. It makes me wonder if its actually the sport they care about, or something else.
 
This is the only time that men care about women's sports. It makes me wonder if its actually the sport they care about, or something else.

This assumption is as stupid as assuming people against this decision hate women and want to see men competing only.
 
This assumption is as stupid as assuming people against this decision hate women and want to see men competing only.

It's not an assumption, its an observation. I've never seen a thread about women's sports in the KS unless it was to argue over transgender competitors or to sexualize the athletes.
 
Ah. I have. And there are conversation regarding women's sports in threads regarding a general sport. Maybe a bit deeper in a conversation, but I happen to enjoy the female competitions of the sports I watch.
 
This is the only time that men care about women's sports. It makes me wonder if its actually the sport they care about, or something else.

Makes me wonder if you really believe that

It's not an assumption, its an observation. I've never seen a thread about women's sports in the KS unless it was to argue over transgender competitors or to sexualize the athletes.

Women’s mma has been discussed here at length. I happen to like women’s hockey, gymnastics, skiing, cycling, dance competitions

I don’t start a thread on every topic I like. I suspect others are similar in just joining in on hot topics but going about and not much time to take part in all.
 
I coached girls sports for years, and other youth sports as well


theres no enough transgender athletes for such a blanket decision. its such an outrageously small number of people. we have to take into account how few trans people there are, then how few decide to play sports, and then how many of those are GOOD at sports

its should be a case by case decision via established committee


the unspoken issue here is how sports have become the only venue for many families to afford higher education, and how its how viewed than trans women could be "stealing" that from a girl
 
Oddly I cannot find a poll of female athletes on the issue.

It seems to me it is their decision, not that of the public at large.
 
It's the decision of the governing body. Nobody is stopping them from starting their own swim league and running it as they see fit.
 
If we're stripping medals based on biological advantage, Michael Phelps should be stripped of ALL of his medals. He has a clear and dominant biological advantage over his competition.
That's not a valid argument, he was born with that physiology, it wasn't a decision he made like taking PED's.

There is a line, there always has to be a line in competition, kind of like the board in a long jump and going over that line must always be a foul.

Your argument is just moving the goal posts to support your side of the argument.
 
It's the decision of the governing body. Nobody is stopping them from starting their own swim league and running it as they see fit.

One would think they would get the opinion, you know, of the actual athletes themselves!

Any governing body worth its salt would want the input of the participants; happens all the time in other sports.
 
This is the only time that men care about women's sports. It makes me wonder if its actually the sport they care about, or something else.

Why would you even go there?

That's like the black guy who did a crime then turns around and says 'you're only doing this because I'm black' when that's not it at all and it cheapens the real cases.
 
Why would you even go there?

That's like the black guy who did a crime then turns around and says 'you're only doing this because I'm black' when that's not it at all and it cheapens the real cases.

Because its the truth.

There's been more threads about transgender women in sports in the past two years than there have been threads discussing women's sports in the entire history of barf.

If you think I'm wrong, prove it.
 
Because its the truth.

There's been more threads about transgender women in sports in the past two years than there have been threads discussing women's sports in the entire history of barf.

If you think I'm wrong, prove it.
It's your perception of the truth.

We all understand that you support transgender women and I don't think that there are a ton of people in the KS who are against them, but when they use their physical advantage to compete against women who were born women then there can be discussion. If they went into motor sports, there would be no argument and their competitiveness would be pretty much the same.

Men do have a physical advantage in many sports, just look at the world records in some sports, they aren't physically the same. Even after transitioning, there is residual advantages that aren't going to completely go away.

And, for the record, I'm 100% behind a woman's right to choose and think it's disgusting that one group is trying to take that decision away from them. :thumbdown
 
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