California has banned generators.

[msethhunter]

Down south in Ventura County, I've had my power off for 30+ hours. Imagine you're on am O2 machine, or need power for some sort of medical equipment. You're on some kind of state disability paycheck, and can't afford battery packs/solar panels, but can afford a $400 generator from Hobo Freight.

This law is poorly written, like many of our laws.

 

[Johndicezx9]

When I was a kid they said unleaded gas was going to ruin automobiles as we know them...

 

[littlebeast]

It took the EPA and CARB to force manufacturers of automobiles to actually engineer instead of giving the middle finger to the world and, pretty much not surprisingly whatsoever, it worked and they were able to clean up their act by actually trying to do so instead of pretending like they didn't know how. This thread is full of the typical American response of misplaced rage for something that is actually better for them just because of some sensationalist bullshit talking head using conformation bias-laced language to piss off people that wouldn't be pissed off at all if they actually checked their misplaced anger at the door and gave a shit about other people besides themselves for a change.

awesome post!

Down south in Ventura County, I've had my power off for 30+ hours. Imagine you're on am O2 machine, or need power for some sort of medical equipment. You're on some kind of state disability paycheck, and can't afford battery packs/solar panels, but can afford a $400 generator from Hobo Freight.

This law is poorly written, like many of our laws.

see above. what makes you think there won’t good be alternatives to gas generators when the commercially viable need arises? hell - you fly jet aircraft. you realize there was a time when everything was prop - right? look what that innovation did to the average persons ability to travel. as shakespeare said "Be not afraid of greatness. Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and others have greatness thrust upon them." this is being thrust upon us. either piss and moan about it, or buckle down and figure out a way to make it work. every challenge is an opportunity. and there are a shit ton of very clever opportunists and innovators out there. they feed on problems that need to be solved. and in this instance - have a lot of advance warning (or as they like to say - runway ).

 

[Holeshot]

When I was a kid they said unleaded gas was going to ruin automobiles as we know them...

Those automobiles ran on leaded...Of COURSE unleaded would ruin them!!!!!

 

[Johndicezx9]

But they weren't, now were they?

 

[wazzuFreddo]

Down south in Ventura County, I've had my power off for 30+ hours. Imagine you're on am O2 machine, or need power for some sort of medical equipment. You're on some kind of state disability paycheck, and can't afford battery packs/solar panels, but can afford a $400 generator from Hobo Freight.

This is why people on O2 keep a spare bottle around. Sounds more like a problem with SoCal Edison than state generator regulations.

One could also keep a battery topped up and switch over when the power goes out. Saves money on the solar part of it.

Any more goal posts you want to move or niche cases we can explore?

 

[wazzuFreddo]

lol, looks like you can get free backup batteries for medical devices if you are on state assistance

https://www.pgecurrents.com/2021/06...-the-impact-of-a-public-safety-power-shutoff/

 

[buellistic]

When the power goes out. Besides the generator.
I installed a Gravity Fed Pellet Stove! To keep the house warm..
Also Banned in California.. it's a life saver since I moved to the mountains.

 

[KooLaid]

When the power goes out. Besides the generator.
I installed a Gravity Fed Pellet Stove! To keep the house warm..
Also Banned in California.. it's a life saver since I moved to the mountains.

Ever had it back feed before? Occasionally if I shut down wrong or closed the vent too much or what not, my traeger will have a hopper smoldering because the fire fed sideways. Your gravity feed system is upward.

 

[msethhunter]

awesome post!



see above. what makes you think there won’t good be alternatives to gas generators when the commercially viable need arises? hell - you fly jet aircraft. you realize there was a time when everything was prop - right? look what that innovation did to the average persons ability to travel. as shakespeare said "Be not afraid of greatness. Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and others have greatness thrust upon them." this is being thrust upon us. either piss and moan about it, or buckle down and figure out a way to make it work. every challenge is an opportunity. and there are a shit ton of very clever opportunists and innovators out there. they feed on problems that need to be solved. and in this instance - have a lot of advance warning (or as they like to say - runway ).

This is why people on O2 keep a spare bottle around. Sounds more like a problem with SoCal Edison than state generator regulations.

One could also keep a battery topped up and switch over when the power goes out. Saves money on the solar part of it.

Any more goal posts you want to move or niche cases we can explore?

Yeah, fuck the poor's! Amirite!?

Not everyone can afford the alternatives. Not everyone has an O2 bottle that'll last 30 hours, with 4-5 hours of electricity, followed by another 30 hours. It's happened in the recent past, and it'll happen again in the recent future.

I'm all for innovation. When this law takes effect, the innovation won't be there.

It's poorly written, and will effect the worst off people the quickest and most dramatically.

 

[mlm]

Yeah, fuck the poor's! Amirite!?

Not everyone can afford the alternatives. Not everyone has an O2 bottle that'll last 30 hours, with 4-5 hours of electricity, followed by another 30 hours. It's happened in the recent past, and it'll happen again in the recent future.

I'm all for innovation. When this law takes effect, the innovation won't be there.

It's poorly written, and will effect the worst off people the quickest and most dramatically.

Two things:
1) Easily accessible portable generators are a fairly recent thing. Not saying they didn't exist previously...just that they were a LOT rarer and harder to come by. People with medical needs have been having to deal with power outages since I was a kid (I think they always had the option of going to the hospital or some sort of emergency shelter)

2) This is twice you've complained the law was written poorly. Care to offer a suggestion how it could be done better? Personally I'd be surprised if the poorest people had the disposable income to afford brand new backup generators, especially for purely emergency purposes. The only poor folks I see around here are homeless people using them 24/7 for their RVs

 

[msethhunter]

lol, looks like you can get free backup batteries for medical devices if you are on state assistance

https://www.pgecurrents.com/2021/06...-the-impact-of-a-public-safety-power-shutoff/

I can see you've never had to rely on these. When my grandmother moved in with my mother, she had these "free" back up batteries. They were all used up garbage. I'm glad my dad had a back up generator. During a few of the outages, she would have had a problem.

 

[buellistic]

Ever had it back feed before? Occasionally if I shut down wrong or closed the vent too much or what not, my traeger will have a hopper smoldering because the fire fed sideways. Your gravity feed system is upward.

It cannot back feed. Its double step downward.

I bought a FLIR camera adapter for my phone and it looks like this when running!
It burns so clean NO Smoke comes out the top.

 

[mlm]

It cannot back feed. Its double step downward.

How does your insurance policy work if this is ever the source of a fire?

Honestly don't care much myself, but since you seem to know it is banned (presumably because of fire code) didn't know if you'd considered that angle

 

[buellistic]

How does your insurance policy work if this is ever the source of a fire?

Honestly don't care much myself, but since you seem to know it is banned (presumably because of fire code) didn't know if you'd considered that angle

When the insurance person came out after we bought the house..they could care less..
Its banned in ca because there is no Catalytic converter..

 

[mlm]

When the insurance person came out after we bought the house..they could care less..
Its banned in ca because there is no Catalytic converter..

edit: Actually, unless the insurance guy explicitly signed off on it I'd still be wary of running any sort of non-permitted heating. Just seems way too easy a reason to reject paying a claim

 

[kuksul08]

Devil's advocate - for 20 years you've had the opportunity to come up with another method to have power, and haven't?

We have the solution. It's cost effective and works reliably. No reason to search for another solution until the tech can catch up.

Battery banks are cool, like the Tesla Power Wall. Let's do some quick math:

Peak Power & Capacity Requirements
A common generator is 5kW peak output. Let's say it runs at 3kW average to keep the house running. I think this is a fair estimate for a family with some appliances/computers/lights on. If we are conservative and only running the bare minimum to keep food from spoiling, maybe we can reduce it to 1500W (a single power outlet capacity) Let's say the power is out for 2 days at a time consecutively (not uncommon). That's 72 to 144kWh.

The PowerWall 2 has 13.5kWh of energy capacity. Therefore it would require would need 5 to 10 of them to last for the 48 hours.

Initial Cost
A generator costs anywhere from $700 to $4000, for the cheapest home-depot special to an ultra quiet Honda, respectively. A single Power Wall costs $10,500 if you don't have a solar system installed on your house, so $52,500 to $105,000 initial investment.

Energy cost
A 5kW generator consumes about 3/4 gallon per hours of running. At $4.50 a gallon, that's $162 for the 2-day time period. A power wall will need to be charged. Power costs about $0.16/kWh and there is probably a 90% charging efficiency. Charging the power walls to last 2 days will cost $13 to $26.

I could probably make a graph of the return on investment crossover point, but I don't know the data on battery degradation. The power walls have a 10 year warranty, and are probably down to 85% capacity at that point. In 20 years, it might be down to 70% initial capacity.

Let's day the power is out for 10 days a year (PG&E forced outages plus storm damage)

Initial Cost: Generator $2000, Power Wall $52,500
Yearly Cost: Generator $810, Power Wall $65
Year 10 Total Cost: Generator $10,100, Power Wall $52,825
Year 20 Total Cost: Generator $18,200, Power Wall $53,800
Crossover: 68 years

Someone correct my math if it's wrong I did this kind of quickly...

I will happily adopt electric energy storage when it becomes feasible but we aren't there yet, and won't be there in 2024 or even 2028.

 

[wazzuFreddo]

Why would someone build a power wall for 48hrs when the sun comes up every morning?

 

[mlm]

...Someone correct my math if it's wrong I did this kind of quickly...

I agree you'd be an idiot to buy a power wall for the sole purpose of emergency backup power. Even spending half that for an equivalent system from Enphase is still a waste...except...

You would only buy such a system to compliment a PV system. In that capacity, you are discounting the cost savings from all the energy you are regularly producing. The battery, under non-outage conditions, will help offset peak usage premiums to further save money.

I'd also expect you are significantly oversizing what you'd need for emergency purposes (avg home use is around 15kwh/day, not 72). I think it reasonable to expect some conservation during such situations (5-10)

Why would someone build a power wall for 48hrs when the sun comes up every morning?

Lots of things, including wildfire smoke will significantly degrade PV output.

Honestly, If I lived in the hills I'd probably get full PV + battery, AND some form of built-in propane fired generator

 

[KooLaid]

Where is everyone going to get their gas when power goes out?

Meanwhile the sun comes up every morning.

My neighbor has solar and a natural gas powered home generator wired into their home. Let me tell ya, that generator has been the envy of the entire neighborhood during the hours and hours long black outs (planned/unplanned) during a 100 degree summer night and their lights and AC were still on.