Danny Kim case update

[peterhively]

The statement of decision makes for good reading

https://www.revzilla.com/assets/0005/2363/Daniel_Kim_Jr_vs_County_of_Monterey_et_al.pdf

 

[FXCLM5]

sweet, but does he have to pay for everybody's legal fees, wasted time etc?

 

[Holeshot]

We agree. The annual sandbags did not come into play as I had thought they may. The judge dismissed their use as a negligent action.

 

[sidewazzz]

Not gonna say I was right but….. y’all can go back and read my comments.

this wasn’t rebar in the impact zone covered by gravel and it wasn’t a random sandbag in the gravel trap it was literally sandbags to help keep the integrity of the track for the great good… in a area NOBODY goes off at…. Again nobody goes off at…. And to do so you gotta really mess up like what is shown in the video. Kim was already in the process of crashing sandbags or not.

No he wasn’t avoiding a slower rider (that’s complete horse shit) … I’ll go as far to say he may have purposely planned this crap considering how odd the actual crash was and considering the camera view… the turn… the spot of the crash and the riders experience.

This has really struck a cord with me considering over the years I’ve documented crashes, seen people get hurt badly and even die. And for this dude whom seems to have a great reputation (kidding) try to take advantage of a sport that seem like it’s always on the edge of dying is lowest of the low to me.

I’m glad SCAMP, Keigwins and Laguna come out on top from someone trying to get a pay day.

With that being said I hope Kim finds it very difficult to actually book a track day.

 

[ratpick]

I was there that day with my grandsons. We drove up there to see if anything was going on and watched for awhile, saw the crash.
I think that’s my white truck in the lower right on the video.

Glad about the outcome.

 

[Holeshot]

Well said Jesus.

 

[Johndicezx9]

I was there that day with my grandsons. We drove up there to see if anything was going on and watched for awhile, saw the crash.
I think that’s my white truck in the lower right on the video.

Glad about the outcome.

I could totally see you on the witness stand, shoulda been called...

 

[stangmx13]

I'm a little disappointed in the community's response to all of this. The pitchforks came out hard and fast. Kim had a case against some party and the system worked - a judge ruled that what happened was not negligent because he thought safety was maximized. End of story. This system is keeping trackdays safe for us. The boundaries of what is allowed were challenged here and further defined. Without occasional challenges like this, more people would get seriously injured. You shouldn't want to live in a world where someone can do anything because they got you to "sign a waiver" - a waiver that you never thought to care about until something bad happens to you.

As far as Kim having to pay for legal fees, that's hot garbage. Some law requiring such would make it so that only rich entities can sue. Since most here don't seem to be swimming in cash, it's easy to say that we don't wan't that. And there are enough people on BARF that its very very likely someone has successfully sued for negligence concerning a motorcycle injury. Perhaps the other parties will counter-sue for fees. Perhaps they'll win. And the system will have worked again because a judge will decide, not the mob.

I’ll go as far to say he may have purposely planned this crap considering how odd the actual crash was and considering the camera view… the turn… the spot of the crash and the riders experience.

Really? You are accusing Kim of intentionally crashing to sue? Fuck man, you are disappointing. Your previous comments had plenty of points and were reasonably good convo. This is just toxic and stupid.

 

[tzrider]

Really? You are accusing Kim of intentionally crashing to sue? Fuck man, you are disappointing. Your previous comments had plenty of points and were reasonably good convo. This is just toxic and stupid.

I don’t think he did that, but I also don’t think he was trying to make the sport safer.

I do think he was spending Lit Motors investor money on a Ducati and track days in the name of “testing” and that he was financially strapped. When he crashed, everything at Lit ground to a halt and he was fucked. The big ask ($15M) was an attempt to get out from under the legal trouble that was coming for him. Subsequent the the crash, there was a $300k judgement against Lit Motors and an arrest warrant out for Kim for failure to appear in court.

 

[stangmx13]

I don’t think he did that, but I also don’t think he was trying to make the sport safer.

I do think he was spending Lit Motors investor money on a Ducati and track days in the name of “testing” and that he was financially strapped. When he crashed, everything at Lit ground to a halt and he was fucked. The big ask ($15M) was an attempt to get out from under the legal trouble that was coming for him. Subsequent the the crash, there was a $300k judgement against Lit Motors and an arrest warrant out for Kim for failure to appear in court.

My completely uninformed opinion is the same. Kim seems like a person that I'd avoid IRL. But why do his motives matter? Any potential changes to trackdays, for better or worse, are mostly independent of his motives. Is this just justifying the pitchforks I brought up? If I was in a comparable incident (something that presented a gray area of possible negligence by the track) and sued to make trackdays safer and for damages cuz injuries/lawyers, would the community have a different opinion?

The courts were asked if sandbags to control dirt running onto the track in a specific place were more or less safe than not having them there. If it's not apparent by now, IMO this question was one worth asking. I feel bad that someone had to get injured to bring up the question. But I'm a little satisfied that it was answered.

 

[tzrider]

Considering the logistics of putting the sandbags out there and the testimony of track personnel, it’s a question that has been carefully considered. Those things have been out every winter for at least the last 20 years, placed out of normal impact areas. Nobody has been hurt crashing into a sandbag before this and they are placed there because it’s safer to do it than not to.

Did the world need Danny Kim to ask the question in court? I don’t think it did, but it’s just my opinion.

 

[Gravisman]

While I think the judge wrote an excellent opinion in this case, and I’m pleased with it, I also want to give a +1 to Rob’s points. There was a time when tracks cared little at all for rider safety because they knew nothing would keep racers from racing. The racing world changed only very slowly and with great (collective) effort from racers to advocate for their own safety.

I definitely think the right attitude should include a desire to constantly advance the safety of our sport just as we always want to advance the performance of our bikes. The attitude of “everyone signs a waiver that covers everything including gross negligence and screw anyone who pushes back on that” isn’t productive to the aim of long term safety improvement.

 

[tzrider]

I haven’t found tracks to have that attitude.

 

[afm199]

I'm a little disappointed in the community's response to all of this. The pitchforks came out hard and fast. Kim had a case against some party and the system worked - a judge ruled that what happened was not negligent because he thought safety was maximized. End of story. This system is keeping trackdays safe for us. The boundaries of what is allowed were challenged here and further defined. Without occasional challenges like this, more people would get seriously injured. You shouldn't want to live in a world where someone can do anything because they got you to "sign a waiver" - a waiver that you never thought to care about until something bad happens to you.

As far as Kim having to pay for legal fees, that's hot garbage. Some law requiring such would make it so that only rich entities can sue. Since most here don't seem to be swimming in cash, it's easy to say that we don't wan't that. And there are enough people on BARF that its very very likely someone has successfully sued for negligence concerning a motorcycle injury. Perhaps the other parties will counter-sue for fees. Perhaps they'll win. And the system will have worked again because a judge will decide, not the mob.

And yet it is a staple of English law. Further, it's common in English law for a judge to punish frivolous lawsuits.

And in the US we have a system that produces tens of thousands of hungry lawyers every year, many of whom simply turn to tort law as a arena of easy pickings. Find a "injured" plaintiff, offer your services for free, and get a third of the settlement. That's how it works.

One of the most unpleasant aspects of doing business in California is that it may be an "at will" state for firing someone, theoretically, but in practice, it is very much not. We've found that in some cases it costs less to pay a shitty employee $10k to $30k to take a hike, rather than fire them and pay endless lawyer and court costs, with no conclusion.

CA and the US are litigious societies, and it does little for society as a whole. It also vastly increases insurance costs.

 

[afm199]

While I think the judge wrote an excellent opinion in this case, and I’m pleased with it, I also want to give a +1 to Rob’s points. There was a time when tracks cared little at all for rider safety because they knew nothing would keep racers from racing. The racing world changed only very slowly and with great (collective) effort from racers to advocate for their own safety.

I definitely think the right attitude should include a desire to constantly advance the safety of our sport just as we always want to advance the performance of our bikes. The attitude of “everyone signs a waiver that covers everything including gross negligence and screw anyone who pushes back on that” isn’t productive to the aim of long term safety improvement.

Improving safety is always a fight. And it should be and I am glad to see it.

Danny Kim wasn't improving safety, he was using Keigwins, Laguna, and MoCo as cash cows to line his pocket. He's a turd. Fuck him.

 

[stangmx13]

Considering the logistics of putting the sandbags out there and the testimony of track personnel, it’s a question that has been carefully considered. Those things have been out every winter for at least the last 20 years, placed out of normal impact areas. Nobody has been hurt crashing into a sandbag before this and they are placed there because it’s safer to do it than not to.

Did the world need Danny Kim to ask the question in court? I don’t think it did, but it’s just my opinion.

Doing something for 20yrs doesn't necessarily mean it's the best way. In this case though, it probably is. But I will appreciate if this whole deal produces better communication between Laguna, providers, and riders.

I appreciate and respect your opinion. Thnx for it.

And yet it is a staple of English law. Further, it's common in English law for a judge to punish frivolous lawsuits.

And in the US we have a system that produces tens of thousands of hungry lawyers every year, many of whom simply turn to tort law as a arena of easy pickings. Find a "injured" plaintiff, offer your services for free, and get a third of the settlement. That's how it works.

One of the most unpleasant aspects of doing business in California is that it may be an "at will" state for firing someone, theoretically, but in practice, it is very much not. We've found that in some cases it costs less to pay a shitty employee $10k to $30k to take a hike, rather than fire them and pay endless lawyer and court costs, with no conclusion.

CA and the US are litigious societies, and it does little for society as a whole. It also vastly increases insurance costs.

Oh I agree that the system is flawed and could be improved. But I do also think that the specific part of the system that concerns this incident is working well-enough to keep society moving forward. I saw plenty of this working with RiderzLaw and even during federal jury duty earlier this year. There are good people doing good things somewhere in all of this.

 

[afm199]

Oh I agree that the system is flawed and could be improved. But I do also think that the specific part of the system that concerns this incident is working well-enough to keep society moving forward. I saw plenty of this working with RiderzLaw and even during federal jury duty earlier this year. There are good people doing good things somewhere in all of this.

I absolutely agree that there are good people doing good things. Having been a the target of a couple of not so good tort lawyers basically suing in order to negotiate a payoff, I'm not sure the system is doing that well. And the out of pocket money it cost Keigwins and Simon to defend was not insubstantial.

 

[ctwo]

Is the offending sand bag still there?

 

[stangmx13]

Is the offending sand bag still there?

Has it been raining there?

I suspect it won't be there for MA in July. This is partially because it'll be dry AF and because they have higher safety standards than trackdays. It probably also won't be there for CRA in June.

 

[ctwo]

Has it been raining there?

I suspect it won't be there for MA in July. This is partially because it'll be dry AF and because they have higher safety standards than trackdays. It probably also won't be there for CRA in June.

I don't recall if it was dry AF when Danny crashed. I may not be there because of a "higher" safety standard? That sounds odd and could imply that rebar sticking out of the ground could meet some safety standard.

They should make a permanent sand bag there with DK embroidered on the burlap,