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Digital SLR / DSLR Camera Question / DSLR Thread 2

Great, great comments everyone. Mosquito: I have two lenses, the kit D70 lens (17-70 f/3.5-4.5) and a 50mm f/1.8. I am interested now and seeing what kind of primes I can buy for "not much money". Perhaps something in the longer end of the spectrum. I can't afford a fast zoom lens, so maybe a fast used/manual prime is in order.

Ok, shifting gears... I had a question yesterday about depth of field:

My favorite lens (uh, of the two) is my 50mm f/1.8. When I've got the aperture wide open, it really throws the background out of focus... something I like, as it draws more attention to my subjects.

One thing I noticed however is on your camera, the backgrounds are thrown MUCH more out of focus. Why is this? Does it have anything with having a full frame camera? I thought it was just a function of focal length and aperture.

As I was taking pictures yesterday of the Chinese New Year parade, there was a gentleman next to me shooting with a Canon 40D and a big white lens, a 70-200mm f/2.8 IS. I watched his viewfinder every so often and so many of his photos had the background REALLY blown out! I took identical pictures with the 50mm at 1.8 and they weren't even close.

Clues, please! Do I need a full frame camera? Do I just need to shoot longer focal lengths with big (f/2.8) apertures??
 
With wide-angle lenses you're stuck with DoF, even when the aperture is wide open. With longer focal-length lenses (above 85 mm), DoF gets lost when the aperture is wide open. The longer the focal length, and the shot taken wide open (f/2.8 or f/2), the more the subject "pops" out and the background goes kablooey. I'm sure TylerW or Cycle61 can explain the physics of the various glass inside a 70-200 mm or longer lens, as I sure can't.

And a Canon 40D is not a full-frame DSLR. Still have to factor in the 1.6 magnification crop thingee. That magnification factor also figures into the loss of DoF, or bokeh.
 
Different lens give different bokeh (how out of focus things in the background look), thats something you may be noticing
 
Different lens give different bokeh (how out of focus things in the background look), thats something you may be noticing

No, I understand that, but I'm talking about the background being REALLY thrown out of focus, not the quality of the bokeh.

Looking back at Stan23's example photo (see below), shot at 200m f/2.0. The background is almost completely unrecognizable, not just a little bit, ALOT. I guess this is just simply a function of LARGE aperture, LARGE focal length, and nothing to do with the sensor size of the camera.

CRW_4469.jpg
 
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Maybe the background in his shot is much farther away than in your pictures. I also am not too familiar with the mechanics of the lenses to really explain it... Just throwing out ideas
 
... I guess this is just simply a function of LARGE aperture, LONG focal length, and nothing to do with the sensor size of the camera ....

Fixed.

It's the glass inside the lens. On long lenses (200 mm and longer), the layers of glass inside them make far subjects look nearer and blow out the background. Pretty neat. The camera is basically a box. A DSLR is a very expensive, computerized box that captures light.
 
Really though, what was the context of that shot?

I set out that morning with the deliberate intention of doing some street photography, getting outside my comfort zone, interacting with people who I normally would have walked past without a second glance. I met these guys sitting on a bench by the boardwalk in Santa Cruz, and struck up a conversation. We had been talking for about half an hour, I had been shooting occasionally, and I asked if I could take a few pictures of them. The self-titled "Pirates of Santa Cruz" Good guys.
 
Fixed.

It's the glass inside the lens. On long lenses (200 mm and longer), the layers of glass inside them make far subjects look nearer and blow out the background.

The degree to which you have defocused background is a product of exactly two things. 1) focal length and 2) aperture. And the 200 f/2 is truly a sick piece of glass. :drool
 
I set out that morning with the deliberate intention of doing some street photography, getting outside my comfort zone, interacting with people who I normally would have walked past without a second glance. I met these guys sitting on a bench by the boardwalk in Santa Cruz, and struck up a conversation. We had been talking for about half an hour, I had been shooting occasionally, and I asked if I could take a few pictures of them. The self-titled "Pirates of Santa Cruz" Good guys.

Very cool. It looks like you and some friends had had a day sailing and just pulled up on a tropical beach. :eek:)
 
The degree to which you have defocused background is a product of exactly two things. 1) focal length and 2) aperture. And the 200 f/2 is truly a sick piece of glass. :drool

It's the glass, man!

From Wikipedia:
... [T]he basic construction of a telephoto lens ... consists of front lens elements that, as a group, have a positive focus. The focal length of this group is shorter than the effective focal length of the lens. The converging rays from this group are intercepted by the rear lens group, sometimes called the "telephoto group," which has a negative focus. The simplest telephoto designs could consist of one element in each group, but in practice, more than one element is used in each group to correct for various aberrations. The combination of these two groups produces a lens assembly that is physically shorter than a long focus lens producing the same image size.

With a long lens a photog could stop down and the background would still be out-of-focus. By how much? Beats me. Always shoot wide open with long lenses. :laughing
 
It's the glass, man!

From Wikipedia:


With a long lens a photog could stop down and the background would still be out-of-focus. By how much? Beats me. Always shoot wide open with long lenses. :laughing

It's the focal length, milady. :)

Doesn't matter how many pieces of glass the manufacturer used to create that focal length. I shot with a 105mm lens that had one glass element (mounted on a CV boot, thanks mosquito!) and it created beautiful out of focus areas.

I usually shoot longer lenses wide open or one stop down. Depends on the quality of the lens. 70-200/2.8, wide open. Sigma 150, gotta stop down to f/4 to get it really sharp.
 
Oh wow. I didn't realise DoF had been a topic in this thread since November.

Anyone have a URL handy for a good DoF description / tutorial? The one at Wikipedia contains good info but is less-than-straightforward.

We've got several good descriptions / discussions starting about here and in the next posts after that.

I like to think of the phrase "Depth of Field" as being short for something like "The depth of the 'proportional range' of acceptable sharpness." With any particular settings, there is one distance at which objects are in focus and there is a range of nearby distances that are 'acceptably sharp'. Keeping the same lens, focal length and aperture but changing the focal distance keeps the same proportion of ranges acceptable even though the distances to the objects changes, e.g. say I'm focused at 10' and my DoF is 9-12', refocusing at 20' is going to give me a DoF of about 18-24'.

--
<an aside>

It *roughly* works like that. Different lenses and lens designs work differently. It's also not a linear scale, but is rather constant proportion of the lens' focal range. Using a photo from Wikipedia,

240px-Lens_aperture_side.jpg


this lens is focused at about 1.5 m and set at f/11, so everything in the 1-2 m range is going to be acceptable. If we refocused to 4-ish m, then everything in the 1.5 m-∞ range is going to be acceptable. As you change the focal distance on the lens the range of measured distances to the objects that are 'acceptable' changes, but the proportion for the lens stays constant.

</aside>
--

I'm not certain, but I think the following is correct.

That there is a range is mostly (or entirely) due to how our vision works. How deep or shallow the DoF can be is mainly dependent on how light bends in a particular lens.

Shorter lenses are bending the light a lot when the irises are wide open and results is greater variance on your imaging surface. Stop 'em down and 'the proportion of their focal range that produces acceptable sharpness' increases because it's using just the center of the lens and bending the light less and creating less variation on the imaging surface. In long lenses the same thing happens, but it is less apparent because they inherently have smaller depths of field to begin with.

--
<another aside>

This is different from how two different lenses with the same basic design will have different depths of field at the same settings, say two 28 mm'ers at 2 m at f/4. In this case, the difference is in the optical design and quality.

</aside>
--

... Clues, please! Do I need a full frame camera? Do I just need to shoot longer focal lengths with big (f/2.8) apertures??

The short answer is no. Don't spend your time / money / energy there. Spend it on seat time. Some additional tips are to focus in front of your subjects so that the subject is still in the DoF and to set up your shots with the backgrounds further away. These will both put more of your backgrounds out of the DoF and make them less focused.

Like, look at the Zoriah photos. For the single child, I think the focus was on the top of the head but because of the DoF the eyes are 'close enough' and the background is slightly more defocused than it would have been if it'd been focused, say, on the nose. In the three children photo, the design focus is on the tallest child, but the image focus is on close side of the middle child's head. This allows all three children to be 'in focus' but makes the background people a little more defocused.

On the Chinese New Year photos, the 70-200mm has as smaller proportional range than the 50 mm prime, so even by opening up more than the other person could have you probably still had a longer / deeper / larger DoF. They just behave differently. I would want to compare your images cropped down to the same field of view before dismissing the shots with f/1.8 though. To get images that really would have pleased you it might have been better to find a different position / location and to have shot different things because you were using different tools.


--
<yet another aside>

When I'm out shooting -- that's working to create interesting images as opposed to 'taking pictures' -- it's a trip. I'll see a scene, static or dynamic, and then fly. I'll start moving around taking in as much of the scene as I can, looking for compositions, lighting, shooting positions, subject dynamics. Often I'll find that where I want to be to shoot something ... or where I want to wait to shoot something that's going to happen ... will be in an inaccessible spot like the middle of the street or floating thirty feet in the air. Sometimes I can't get the shot I want because I have the wrong camera or wrong lens with me. *Then* in any case it's my job to find the best I can for the tools I have with me and my physical limitations.

</aside>
--

For the idea of using a full-frame camera to get more / better defocusing, it can make a difference, but you're looking at a < 1% change when you already have the real tools in your hands. I'd liken it to wanting to get faster track times by improving my aerodynamics instead of learning better body positioning and appropriate lines. Like a lot of things it's not the tools you have but how you use them.

--

FWIW, here's my post about the bellows: http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4569850&postcount=611
and the page with more info: http://homepage.mac.com/mosquito/20081203-b-Bellows/index2.html
 
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... Like, look at the Zoriah photos. For the single child, I think the focus was on the top of the head but because of the DoF the eyes are 'close enough' and the background is slightly more defocused than it would have been if it'd been focused, say, on the nose. In the three children photo, the design focus is on the tallest child, but the image focus is on close side of the middle child's head. This allows all three children to be 'in focus' but makes the background people a little more defocused ....


Well, just keep these thoughts in mind.

Look at good and great portraits of people and critters. What feature is usually the sharpest?

I'd say it's their eyes. Everything else can be out-of-focus.

What's the second notion then as a viewer you get with good and great portraits?

A sense of the photo subject and not of the photographer.
 
The short answer is no. Don't spend your time / money / energy there. Spend it on seat time. Some additional tips are to focus in front of your subjects so that the subject is still in the DoF and to set up your shots with the backgrounds further away. These will both put more of your backgrounds out of the DoF and make them less focused.

Yes, that is a good idea and I have been experimenting with that. From what I have observed through trial and error is that given a certain aperture, you can increase the blur in the background by 1) bringing the subject closer to the lens and 2) increasing the separation between the subject and the background.

Like, look at the Zoriah photos. For the single child, I think the focus was on the top of the head but because of the DoF the eyes are 'close enough' and the background is slightly more defocused than it would have been if it'd been focused, say, on the nose. In the three children photo, the design focus is on the tallest child, but the image focus is on close side of the middle child's head. This allows all three children to be 'in focus' but makes the background people a little more defocused.

FYI, I just read an interview with Zoriah and he uses two lenses, an 16-35 f2.8 and a 70-200 f2.8. It's a shame his Flickr stuff does not have EXIF data. I learn so much from browsing Flickr, observing and milling over that stuff.

The short answer is no. Don't spend your time / money / energy there. Spend it on seat time. Some additional tips are to focus in front of your subjects so that the subject is still in the DoF and to set up your shots with the backgrounds further away. These will both put more of your backgrounds out of the DoF and make them less focused.

I don't know why I thought the FX would be any different for DoF, but your explanation helps clarify everything.


On the Chinese New Year photos, the 70-200mm has as smaller proportional range than the 50 mm prime, so even by opening up more than the other person could have you probably still had a longer / deeper / larger DoF. They just behave differently. I would want to compare your images cropped down to the same field of view before dismissing the shots with f/1.8 though. To get images that really would have pleased you it might have been better to find a different position / location and to have shot different things because you were using different tools.

I wish I could compare shots. I guess I will just have to borrow a 70-200mm f2.8 and find out. :laughing

Or it might be something fun to compare if we BARFers ever get together for an urban safari meetup.

I ask these questions not necessarily because I'm trying to be a camera technology expert, but rather to understand the limits of the equipment and the medium in general. I think I have a general idea now of the limitations of DoF and what equipment to use to get a desired effect.




For the idea of using a full-frame camera to get more / better defocusing, it can make a difference, but you're looking at a < 1% change when you already have the real tools in your hands. I'd liken it to wanting to get faster track times by improving my aerodynamics instead of learning better body positioning and appropriate lines. Like a lot of things it's not the tools you have but how you use them.

Other than for having an effective higher resolution, I'm not sure why FX matters. Maybe that's just it, genuine higher resolution, not just more megapixels.
 
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Today I saw a photographer taking pictures at Market/2nd around lunchtime. His assistant had some kind of flash-on-a-stick thing (not an umbrella). It seemed pretty bright and the refresh was fast! A few times he was firing off 3 or more shots a second and the flash kept up! Anyone know what that was?
 
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It was probably exactly that. A flash on a stick.

Did you see any cords going to it, an external battery pack, a cord to the camera, etc? Did it look like a regular flash, or did it have a small round shaped head, like a parabolic dish? Both Nikon and Canon's top of the line flashes can recycle pretty quickly, and at 1/2 power or less easily crank off three shots in a row. A company called Q-Flash makes several units that are nearly as portable and even more powerful, and another step up from that are any of a universe of studio strobes, some of which are quite compact and can be battery powered.
 
It was probably exactly that. A flash on a stick.
Did you see any cords going to it, an external battery pack, a cord to the camera, etc? Did it look like a regular flash, or did it have a small round shaped head, like a parabolic dish? Both Nikon and Canon's top of the line flashes can recycle pretty quickly, and at 1/2 power or less easily crank off three shots in a row. A company called Q-Flash makes several units that are nearly as portable and even more powerful, and another step up from that are any of a universe of studio strobes, some of which are quite compact and can be battery powered.

Yeah, it looked like it had a dish of some sort, like an aluminum mixing bowl maybe, some wires going down the stick to what I assumed was a battery pack. The refresh is what amazed me though. I don't know if my SB600 can do it that fast. Then again, I have never tried.
 
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