Donate or scrap?

[mercurial]

Your use of the adverb "probably" followed by the affirmative "how to" of getting around a smog is contradictory. You cannot absolve any responsibility of the law by making your own contract. Life just doesn't work that way. Now if the buyer AGREES to it and follows through that's one thing. If he agrees to it then decides to chase you for the repairs, under state law, he is entitled to that.

There is an interplay here between a statute and a person's inherent right to structure and commit to a contract. Whether that means you need to specifically state in contract that the car is "non-operational", "for parts only", or some other phrase (someone do some sleuthing), I am almost positive that there is contractual language that will allow me to characterize that car as a hunk of steel and sell it to you, without being liable for it's ability to pass smog.

 

[kingmoochr]

You have 90 days post registration to non-op a vehicle

You can sell a non-op vehicle as a title only transfer, this may or may not waive you from liability for smog.

You can sell it in non-op status, but in order to return it to operational, it needs a smog. If it doesn't smog, the seller is on the hook for the costs associated with making it smog-able.

Non-op is a registration status, it's not designed to be a vehicle classification. It's to reduce fees for a car you no longer use. If you don't use it because of a problem, you can't pawn that problem off onto someone else without repercussions. Again, that's only if the buyer decides to actually do something about it.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=veh&group=03001-04000&file=4000-4023

 

[mercurial]

You can't sell a vehicle non-op AFAIK. If you want to sell it for parts, the title and plates must be surrendered, and the dmv will process the vehicle as junk. If you sell it in non-op registration status, that doesn't absolve you from smog liability. Can you point to the code section that says otherwise? Cvc 4000.1 (b) doesn't say anything about non-op status as an exclusion.

How about this. The contract says:

"Buyer A will buy car from Seller B for $X (price includes cost of smog). Seller will pay for smog check. In the event that the car doesn't pass smog, buyer will return car to Seller B for a full refund of the sale price, and will purchase the car parts alone for $X. The sale of the car parts will not include title to the car, which will be surrendered to the DMV."

All risk is off-loaded to buyer.

 

[Yakoo752]

There is an interplay here between a statute and a person's inherent right to structure and commit to a contract. Whether that means you need to specifically state in contract that the car is "non-operational", "for parts only", or some other phrase (someone do some sleuthing), I am almost positive that there is contractual language that will allow me to characterize that car as a hunk of steel and sell it to you, without being liable for it's ability to pass smog.

Any contract that is repugnant to state codes is void

You may find someone to 'agree' with the sale you are proposing. And everything may turn out fine. But a court's decision, should the 'agreement' go bad and end up in court, will be in the buyer's favor.

The only exclusion I am seeing is PNO and sell as is.

Smog Certification Requirements for Transfers
•A valid smog certification is normally required for a transfer of a vehicle 1976 model year and newer, and through five model years old.
◦The smog certification must have been obtained within the last 90 days for an individual, or two years for a dealer if the vehicle has been in dealer inventory.
◦Car dealers must ensure that the smog inspection requirements are satisfied prior to delivering a vehicle to a purchaser.
◦Newer vehicles (4 model years old or less) do not need a new smog certification; however, a Smog Transfer fee will be required.

•Smog certification may not be required if the transferee qualifies for one of the following exemptions, and the vehicle is not subject to biennial Smog requirements:
◦The vehicle is powered by diesel or electricity.
◦The vehicle is located outside of California (exception - Nevada or Mexico).
◦The vehicle is being transferred from/between parents, grandparents, child, grandchild, brother, sister, spouse, or domestic partner.
◦The vehicle is being transferred from a sole proprietorship to the proprietor as owner or vice versa.
◦An individual is being added as a registered owner.
◦The vehicle is being transferred between leasing companies with no change of lessee, or the vehicle is being transferred from the leasing company to the lessee.
◦The vehicle is being transferred from the leasing company to the lessee's operator who has been operating the vehicle at least one year.
◦The transfer of a trust vehicle which appears to involve family members that would otherwise be exempt.

For Example: Trustee and the transferrer have the same last name.

NOTE: A Statement of Facts (REG 256) must accompany the transfer application whenever one of the exemptions applies.

If a biennial smog certification is due on the vehicle, the smog exemptions listed above do not apply, and a smog certification must be obtained.

•If the record shows a valid PNO and a "transfer only" is being requested, a smog certification is not due for the transfer as long as the purchase date was after the vehicle expiration date.

who is then required to smog it if the owner wants to return it to the street

 

[kingmoochr]

I believe a "transfer only" is referring to the transfer of ownership only, in the case of a junk or permanent retirement from highway where the title and plates are surrendered. Ie, the vehicle can never return to the street.

If a biennial is due for a on-highway vehicle than no exemptions apply and a smog must be submitted with transfer.

 

[aminalmutha]

Ghost ride it from Yerba Buena and see if it'll hit Oakland.

 

[kingmoochr]

How about this. The contract says:

"Buyer A will buy car from Seller B for $X (price includes cost of smog). Seller will pay for smog check. In the event that the car doesn't pass smog, buyer will return car to Seller B for a full refund of the sale price, and will purchase the car parts alone for $X. The sale of the car parts will not include title to the car, which will be surrendered to the DMV."

All risk is off-loaded to buyer.

Again, a civil contact that is contrary to the law cannot be enforced. You are never protected if the buyer changes their mind.

 

[aminalmutha]

If I had a low-value vehicle that wouldn't pass smog without an inordinate amount of work and/or money, I would simply donate it to charity and write it off on my taxes.

I don't have the time or patience to hassle with sketchy DMV paperwork that will inevitably end up biting you in the ass.

 

[Yakoo752]

I believe a "transfer only" is referring to the transfer of ownership only, in the case of a junk or permanent retirement from highway where the title and plates are surrendered. Ie, the vehicle can never return to the street.

If a biennial is due for a on-highway vehicle than no exemptions apply and a smog must be submitted with transfer.

This is where it gets interesting. When you PNO a vehicle you remove it from registration. It's not allowed to touch the street and must remain on private property at all times (some exceptions apply). So when you PNO a vehicle and then sell it, it is a title only sale since there is no registration.

If the new owner wishes to register the vehicle, I assume, it's the new owners due diligence to get the vehicle operational in all aspect.

I ask and do this digging as I have a parts car that runs, that's pno, that I'm looking to sell. I want to ensure I am not putting myself on the hook for bs. I have looked and inquired everywhere for a definitive statement and haven't found anything.

I've called the DMV a dozen times and the majority of the time, I am told what I am saying - if the car is PNO you can title sell it. If the new owner wishes to register it's on them. Every now and then, I am told - seller smogs

 

[Charles R]

Actually.... I know someone who may be interested.... I linked this thread to him.
I'll let you know what he says.

 

[mercurial]

Fellas, if there is any way, literally just a single way, I can legally sell a car to another entity as a mere physical object, like a piece of scrap - a contract can then be structured to shift risk to the buyer. I'm not sure why you don't understand that, but the law would definitely permit it.

 

[Bay Arean]

This is where it gets interesting. When you PNO a vehicle you remove it from registration. It's not allowed to touch the street and must remain on private property at all times (some exceptions apply). So when you PNO a vehicle and then sell it, it is a title only sale since there is no registration.

If the new owner wishes to register the vehicle, I assume, it's the new owners due diligence to get the vehicle operational in all aspect.

I ask and do this digging as I have a parts car that runs, that's pno, that I'm looking to sell. I want to ensure I am not putting myself on the hook for bs. I have looked and inquired everywhere for a definitive statement and haven't found anything.

I've called the DMV a dozen times and the majority of the time, I am told what I am saying - if the car is PNO you can title sell it. If the new owner wishes to register it's on them. Every now and then, I am told - seller smogs

Very interesting. I keep thinking I might just put my truck to pasture at my Dad's ranch, even though it would end up in the hands of one of my ingrate nephews....if only my Dad were younger, he'd get some pleasure out of it on this PNO basis.

 

[bpw]

Fellas, if there is any way, literally just a single way, I can legally sell a car to another entity as a mere physical object, like a piece of scrap - a contract can then be structured to shift risk to the buyer. I'm not sure why you don't understand that, but the law would definitely permit it.

There is a legal way, it involves getting a junk title which means the car can't be registered again (since it is essentially no longer considered a car). What isn't legal is selling a vehicle for road use that won't pass smog.

 

[kingmoochr]

Fellas, if there is any way, literally just a single way, I can legally sell a car to another entity as a mere physical object, like a piece of scrap - a contract can then be structured to shift risk to the buyer. I'm not sure why you don't understand that, but the law would definitely permit it.

It does, the title and plate must be surrenderd to the dmv. It's in the law. Are you a lawyer? Can you get in writing where a civil contact in violation of law has been upheld? From what my lawyer family member has told me, this is not the case.

The legal way to sell a car as junk or parts is to have it labeled as such. You can't then illegally circumvent the law by writing your own "law" on a piece of paper. I'm not sure how you don't understand that. I think you're operating under the Websters definition of contact. The legal definition is vastly more complex. For instance, if I rush you to sign a 500 page contract, without providing you sufficient time to examine the document, that signature is invalid. Same if it is written in terminology the common person wouldn't be expected to understand. You must allow it to be examined by an expert in the field so it can be explained to the person. Otherwise invalid. Just because you write something on a piece of paper doesn't mean it's legit.

 

[kingmoochr]

If the new owner wishes to register the vehicle, I assume, it's the new owners due diligence to get the vehicle operational in all aspect.

Personally, from what I've read, that sounds like a dangerous assumption. It seems to me, unless you file the junk paperwork beforehand, you're potentially open to liability. I also wouldn't trust any words that come out of any employee's mouth, unless there's a way to document their statement as fact. Too many people don't take the time to actually learn their job and make assumptions.

Again, pno doesn't certify the vehicle to be in any particular condition. Junking a vehicle does. I don't see how it being in pno status upon sale would protect you from smog liability.

 

[Yakoo752]

Personally, from what I've read, that sounds like a dangerous assumption. It seems to me, unless you file the junk paperwork beforehand, you're potentially open to liability. I also wouldn't trust any words that come out of any employee's mouth, unless there's a way to document their statement as fact. Too many people don't take the time to actually learn their job and make assumptions.

Again, pno doesn't certify the vehicle to be in any particular condition. Junking a vehicle does. I don't see how it being in pno status upon sale would protect you from smog liability.

it's why the car still sits and isn't being sold.

 

[kingmoochr]

Shitty

 

[aminalmutha]

it's why the car still sits and isn't being sold.

Get off t3h BARFZ and call the Sacramento DMV Mothership. Local branches are useless.

I think you can legally sell a PNO vehicle w/o smog, otherwise, you'd have to scrap any car that was made after 1975 and converted to track, race or off-highway use. And they certainly do change hands and don't get smogged.

 

[kingmoochr]

Get off t3h BARFZ and call the Sacramento DMV Mothership. Local branches are useless.

I think you can legally sell a PNO vehicle w/o smog, otherwise, you'd have to scrap any car that was made after 1975 and converted to track, race or off-highway use. And they certainly do change hands and don't get smogged.

Yes, you can legally sell it. However, when the buyer spends $2500 dollars getting it to pass smog, he can sue you for it. Hence the problem.

 

[Yakoo752]

Yes, you can legally sell it. However, when the buyer spends $2500 dollars getting it to pass smog, he can sue you for it. Hence the problem.

Sounds like I may be able to get a vehicle converted to "title only" meaning it cannot be registered for street use. If the new owner decides to convert the title back, it would be on them. I hope to call Sac next week for some clarity on this. (only caveat I see is the "at the time the title was issued") (Maybe I can give it to my wife and retitle it in her name as "title only")

When a "Title Only" certificate is issued, the vehicle was not required to be registered in California at the time the title was issued.

For example: A vehicle used solely on private property, registered IRP, issued Special Equipment plates, etc.

NOTE: A corresponding Planned Non-operation status is normally reflected on the vehicle record.

•The basic transfer requirements apply to change ownership of the vehicle.
•If the vehicle will be operated to cause registration fees to be due, fees are collected from the date of first use and license plates are issued, no fee. ◦Smog certification and use tax, if applicable, are required.

•If the vehicle will not be operated as to cause fees to become due, a Statement of Facts (REG 256) for "Title Only" and a Planned Non-Operation Certification (REG 102) must be completed by the new owner and submitted with the transfer application.
◦A Planned Non-Operation Certification is not required if the Statement of Facts indicates that the vehicle will be registered as Special Equipment or as part of an IRP fleet.
◦Include the IRP account number and name and address of the fleet operator if applicable.

•The REG 256 must also indicate how the vehicle was moved from the prior owner's address or the dealership.
◦Print the permit number used to move the vehicle or show "Delivered on Dealer Plates", if applicable.

•Transfer fee. Use tax and smog certification are not due.