DON'T get a motorcycle

[Rob]

I don't tell people how to live their own lives, I dont assume I know what's best for everyone else, and I dont assume that I know best, I am the one with the secret knowledge, and I am the one capable of making decisions for other people. and I sure as hell aint going to be "that guy" who is a hypocritical ahole.

anyone acting as if they know what is best for others, is an idiot. no one knows best for anyone else, fuck most people barely know what is best for themselevs.

I would never, EVER, talk someone out of riding. I would probably try to explain beginner bikes, what I have learned, and what I think. but I will never make others decisions for them. hw would YOU feel if today your dad walked into your garage and fucked up your bike, to protect you from yourself? maybe I just had wise parent. in high school when I wanted a bike, my mom did not want me to get one. though she rode as a youn gadult. sahe never said I COULDN'T, just that she would not take part in helping me do so. I took the course, passed, took the test, bought my own bike, and she signed off for me as a 16 year old to get my liscence. your job as a parent is not to prtect your kids from the world, but to teach them to protect themsleves

You're starting to sound like you know what's best for everyone... careful.

 

[kevin 714]

You're starting to sound like you know what's best for everyone... careful.

What's best for everyone is to not think they know what's best for everyone

Everyone sees life through the lenses of their own eyes and experience. Everyone sees to forget that, and also forget that what you see in a person, what you interact with, is only a small part of who and what that person is. Everyone has an inner monologue and inner thoughts that can drastically differ from what the present to the worlds or to certain people.

People need to live their own lives, make their own mistakes, and bask in their own triumphs.

 

[Gixxergirl1000]

I get what the OP is saying (though I'm not sure I'd go quite a far to act upon it).

We all tend to rationalize that if we're hurt or worse it was "doing what we loved." But in fact, there's a lot more to life than burning dead dinos while accelerating, braking, and turning a machine.

We only say it's worth the risk because we don't really think it will happen to us. If someone told me I could ride for 10 years, but the price to pay was becoming a quadriplegic or death, there's no way that's worth it. Life is too short already and so rich with other experiences that riding is trivial in comparison.

Of course, that's not the deal we make. We trade the rewards for the *chance* of these outcomes (though we probably underestimate those chances).

So we enjoy the reward and take the risk, in part because we really only think of ourselves. We think about how WE would feel if we were paralyzed or died, not the impact on families or friends. So it's a selfish decision.

So if we're okay making a selfish decision for ourselves, it's natural to continue to make selfish decisions. If I was a parent I can see trying to shelter my kids from becoming part of the carnage we see every year in our community...primarily because I wouldn't want to live the rest of my life with that loss, and knowing I got them into the hobby that killed them.

Selfish? Yes. Hypocritical? That too. Honest? You bet.

That said, there's a difference between thinking like this and acting upon it. Just like I want others to respect my decisions, we have to let them make theirs. And I imagine the hardest part of parenting is letting kids try things that their parents wish they wouldn't. Still, that doesn't mean we have to encourage friends/families/kids to try things that put them at risk, even if we take those risk ourselves...

I've lost more people in my life to suicide, cancer and car accidents than deaths on motorcycles. I started riding in the mid 80's, and finally had my first crash two years ago- in my second race. I've suffered more injuries from horses than I ever have from bikes (dirt or street... and I crashed my dirt bike a LOT... I was fail on dirt).
People die every day, in all sorts of ways, the majority of which have nothing to do with motorcycles.
Are there risks? Of course. But those risks can be mitigated by how and where you ride, being an ATGATT rider, and how diligently you work at improving your skills.
Personally, I don't want to live a life devoid of risks.
If others feel that way, too, it's not my place to sabotage them. If I believe someone has unrealistic expectations of what riding is or isn't, I'll do my best to educate them... encourage them to get an appropriate starter bike... take the MSF... but ultimately, it's their decision.

 

[Gixxergirl1000]

Kevin, do you have a friend/family member who you know would crash if they got a bike? Have you ever been on a group ride and pointed out the guy who as gonna crash?

It's been years since anyone crashed on one of my rides.
But I'm strict with pre-ride safety speeches and rules, and have no problem pulling someone aside riding in a manner that isn't following the rules, or that I see has a need for education. I've stopped rides to talk to people, and give them pointers on entering and setting up for corners.
Instead of pointing out the guy who might crash, I find it better to work with them to become better riders.

People need to live their own lives, make their own mistakes, and bask in their own triumphs.

This is beautiful.

 

[SirSkankin DBA]

He should lead by example...

My brother's are the people that got me into riding. When my oldest brother and sister in-law were expecting their first child, my brother quit riding because he wanted to be around to see his son grow up. Just this past week, I was sitting with him and we were talking about riding, and I said to him "you can't say much, because it is your and our other brother's fault that I ride." we shared a good laugh and went on with life. On top of that, both of my brother's have been very protective over me, all my life. Neither one of them have ever damaged my bikes or tried to talk me out of it.

The problem I have with the OP, isn't his selfishness, but his hypocrisy and lack of faith in his own sister. Friends, I agree, is another story...But, if you are so worried about your son or your sister, lead by example and please don't plan on ever dying, because at this rate, you will need to be around for eternity to make sure you can make decisions for your family's further generations.

 

[SirSkankin DBA]

What's best for everyone is to not think they know what's best for everyone

Everyone sees life through the lenses of their own eyes and experience. Everyone sees to forget that, and also forget that what you see in a person, what you interact with, is only a small part of who and what that person is. Everyone has an inner monologue and inner thoughts that can drastically differ from what the present to the worlds or to certain people.

People need to live their own lives, make their own mistakes, and bask in RIDING their own triumphs (or whatever bike they choose).

FTFY

Well, that is where we differ

Oh, you forgot that he wouldn't intentionally vandalize someone's bike to get them not to ride, among many other things....

 

[gnstalodz]

no, where we differ is that you think you have access to some special wisdom and skill where YOU can ride, and expose your family to the same things(fears, worry, uncertainty, injury or death) you find unacceptable to be exposed to.

where we differ, is that you are an astounding hypocrite, and a coward.

tough words

But again I already called myself a hypocrite.

And you could call me whatever you like, but call me a coward and it would be a lie, and if not a lie, then just ignorant talk from a person on the internet.

If you would like to compare penis size online we can talk over pm or take this to the sink?

 

[kevin 714]

You intentionally vandalized someone's bike, you are a coward and a criminal.
That you call yourself a hypocrit, In some sort of attempt to seem philosophically open, does not remove and absolve you from the negative state a hypoctrit is, and doesn't mean people will just ignore that fact. The self admition, yet continuance of, that hypocrisy, only makes it exponentially worse.

You are a coward because you are quite willing to subject those you love to a situation you yourself are not capable of bearing. You are emotionally and philosophically incapable of handling a state which you subject others to. Someone quite wiling to throw a punch, but unwilling to take one, so to speak

I abhor hypocrisy, and combined with the tendency of people in general on barf to think they know better than everyone, know better than others what is best for riding, what Nike is th best, who should and should not ride, and all the other general crap full of "experts", of which you are a gleaming example, only makes it worse.

 

[Lovedoc]

If it weren't for my two-wheeled obsession, my two sons would no more ride moto than camelback. I worry all the time, I doubt I would survive if I lost one. I buy the gear, medical insurance, training and keep the bikes running. I totally get the OP, hypocrisy on BARF is nothing weighed against your family. Take care of your kids gnstalodz, best way you can.

 

[gnstalodz]

People need to live their own lives, make their own mistakes, and bask in their own triumphs.

As a brother, I'll do what I need to keep my family safe.

Apparently you've never met that person who you know shouldn't ride. Or at least it wasn't a loved one.

 

[kevin 714]

I'm sure as fuck glad my parents were my parents, and raised me to be my own man, make my own mistakes and live my own life. That the recognized my life is MY LIFE, not theirs or anyone elses, and simply privided me the tools the best they could to live my own life. They ever once, told me what I could or could not do. At least not past the age of 12-13. Jesus fuck am I glad

16 year old me: mom, I wanna get a motorcycle
mom: I dont think you should. its dangerous, very dangerous. Im am not going to support you in this, cause I dont want any blood on my hands but I am not going to tell you what to do. you know my opinion.
me: im sorry you are worried, how bout I take al the courses, buy all the gear I can, and try an dlearn tyo be safe
mom: be as safe as you can, thats all I ask


being worries about your family is a part of human existence, if you cant learn to handle it, control it, and weigh its importance against the sovreignty of others, well then...

 

[SummerLove]

Three people I depend on and care about greatly all ride, 2 of them every single day like me. The other rides more than he drives now for the most part.
Do I worry about them? All the damn time.
I'd never ask them to stop doing something they all love greatly. I don't resent them for subjecting me to the worry. When we talk about riding a big part of it is gear and education.
Since I started riding one of them that had not heard of ATGATT really at all is a believer, the other one already was and the last started riding after our household became very strict about what we wear when we ride.
Mind you I don't approve off their decisions (they are okay with dragon jeans, I'm not). I've encouraged (and in one case dragged Tixen along) to training courses which everyone ended up enjoying a great deal and learning a lot from.
I'll continue to encourage good decisions, training and 'good' judgement when it comes to riding.
I've only been riding on the street for a year and I don't think I'll ever stop.
If someone asks me about I'll point them in the right direction (MSF first, more training later like the ERC/ARC, ACSCM, TC, etc. good gear etc) and answer questions they ask honestly. In the end to ride is their decision. If they make poor decisions regarding it, I'll let them know and probably not ride with them. I do think leading by example is a good. Which is why you won't catch me gearless, neglecting my bike and not finding some way to practice skills I've learned (even if I'm fooking broke and it's just taking some cones to a parking lot) and always seeking more education and training (assuming I can afford it).

OP:
You are dick bag for sabotaging your sister's bike. If you think someone shouldn't be riding tell them as much and explain why. After that it's out of your control.

And a small anecdote on parenting. My mom surprised the hell out of me when she didn't object to me buying a bike. (She was paying for my school at the time so I felt like she had some say in the matter.) Yes, I was 23 and had been out living on my own for several years. She was an APRN in a L1 Trauma Center for years. She trusted me to research the matter thoroughly (I'm known for over doing that) and felt I understood the risks involved (disclaimer I'd been an EMT for 4 or 5 years at that point and worked as a tech in a Trauma Center too so I had a bit more exposure to the kinda of carnage MC collisions and crashes can cause than the average person.) but the big one was I'm an adult now and I have to make my own decisions.
Since I started riding she's been trying to talk me into riding out to visit her and her husband in Utah. Even trying to bribe me with offer of renting a dirt bike and going to Moab (she has a thing for those enclosed 4x4s like the Raptor). Which I would love to do, though I'm a little concerned about embarrassing the hell out of myself since the last time I road a dirt bike I was 14.
She's been very supportive of me riding and gave me a nice textile jacket last year for birthday.
I suppose what I'm getting at is good parents don't make decisions like what you are suggesting for their children. Good parents prepare and teach their children to make good decisions.
If I ever had children I'd encourage them to give riding a try and if they didn't like it so be it. If they did? Well I hope to god Metcalf and such would still be around they could get a jump start on learning to ride instead of waiting until their 20s.

 

[gnstalodz]

That you call yourself a hypocrit, In some sort of attempt to seem philosophically open, does not remove and absolve you from the negative state a hypoctrit is, and doesn't mean people will just ignore that fact. The self admition, yet continuance of, that hypocrisy, only makes it exponentially worse.

You are a coward because you are quite willing to subject those you love to a situation you yourself are not capable of bearing. You are emotionally and philosophically incapable of handling a state which you subject others to. Someone quite wiling to throw a punch, but unwilling to take one, so to speak

..."to think they know better than everyone, know better than others"

I'm not going to deny I am a hypocrite, why would I? I love to ride, but I don't want to risk losing the ones I love. Especially when I know of the outcome.

And your definition of a coward, is actually a hypocrite, and they are not the same thing. I'm not looking out for my feelings b.c of them getting into an accident. I'm looking out for their life. Know the difference.

And I am not "better than everyone, know better than others". Most the vets here on barf are much better riders than me, and have a lot they can teach me. I absorb it and try to teach it to others. And no point am I saying I know what's best for everyone, but I know what is best for my family, and I know the people they are, and I love them. Stop thinking of this being so general.

Take care of your kids gnstalodz, best way you can.

 

[kevin 714]

compassion is almost always a ruse for selfish feelings. justification, rationalization, these are powerful things.

 

[gnstalodz]

OP:
You are dick bag for sabotaging your sister's bike. If you think someone shouldn't be riding tell them as much and explain why. After that it's out of your control.

it was a ninja 250 that she bought for $400 and it had ghetto wiring and I said I could fix it. I didn't fix it on purpose.

I did talk to her about it, she was on a budget and couldn't afford a car, and thought a bike would be cheaper. I know.

And apparently it's not out of my control.

 

[kevin 714]

there's that rationalization thing...

 

[gnstalodz]

compassion is almost always a ruse for selfish feelings. justification, rationalization, these are powerful things.

I'm done with this one on one arguing with you. Your ignorant and it was amusing but now you are trying to take to a personal point. And I'm tired of it.

IF you would like to grab a cup of coffee and TALK about this, I would love to hear what you have to say, and maybe get an understanding of where you're coming from. But I'm not going to sit here over the internet while you try to take personal jabs at a person you don't even know. I am off the next couple of days and live in the East bay.

 

[kevin 714]

I'm done with this one on one arguing with you. Your ignorant and it was amusing but now you are trying to take to a personal point. And I'm tired of it.

IF you would like to grab a cup of coffee and TALK about this, I would love to hear what you have to say, and maybe get an understanding of where you're coming from. But I'm not going to sit here over the internet while you try to take personal jabs at a person you don't even know. I am off the next couple of days and live in the East bay.

Actually oddly enough, the quote you posted was entirely non personal. It's a general observation about human nature, and in no way specific to you.

 

[gnstalodz]

Actually oddly enough, the quote you posted was entirely non personal. It's a general observation about human nature, and in no way specific to you.

read post #77

 

[SummerLove]

it was a ninja 250 that she bought for $400 and it had ghetto wiring and I said I could fix it. I didn't fix it on purpose.

I did talk to her about it, she was on a budget and couldn't afford a car, and thought a bike would be cheaper. I know.

And apparently it's not out of my control.

Without hearing the whole thing it's hard to make a judgement. Depending the bike and car in question (mind you usually the car wins out.. usually) it can be cheaper to own a bike. That's neither here nor there.
You made it sound like you intentionally made her bike not run which is different from not fixing it. Assuming you at least told her what was wrong and that you were choosing not fix it rather that lying. Otherwise it's nasty manipulation which is a whole different subject that I have a lot of strong opinions on.