Let's build a carbon fender!

[shw911]

Can't wait for the pics Tygaboy!
It'll be fookin cool!

 

[DougZ]

OK, so I finally got in my partall and PVA from Fiberglast yesterday, so I decided to start playing. The goal was to make a production mold from a fiberglass fender that I already have. I got to learn some new things:

1. Putting tape on the inside of the part to protect it is a royal PIA.

2. PVA, no matter how many spray nozzles(glass plus type bottle) you put into it...till clogs and shoots out like a water gun.

3. Partall.....is a PIA..somewhat....it was hard to tell if it was there or I just wiped it off, and if you let it sit on part for more than 137 seconds, its hard to get off.

3. Polyester resin sets up pretty quick with hardener they include. (Bondo Brand....didn't wanna buy the good stuff to make a mold..not yet anyway.) And boy, does it smell.

4. The same resin as above makes a nice paint brush holder before you get the second layers of glass on. LOL

5. Just draping a 2 oz glass over the fender and hoping for the best will not work. This time around, I am gonna have to give it a little more planning, and cut the layers for the mold out ahead of time, and use some thicker glass for support.

6. And once I realized I had made a mess, and decided to abort, I was glad to find out later that the Partall and PVA really worked well, and I must have put them on right, cause my disaster of a mold making attempt, came off relatively easily.

PICS TO COME TONIGHT.

Questions:

1. How many times do you wax the parts with the partall?

2. How did you apply the PVA again..I saw the honey bear thing, but how to spread on the part? The directions were talking about using a sprayer?

3. I guess I should cut the glass to make the mold like I would for making the part? The paper trick you used in your tank thread?

Thanks again Chris.

 

[tygaboy]

Questions:

1. How many times do you wax the parts with the partall?

2. How did you apply the PVA again..I saw the honey bear thing, but how to spread on the part? The directions were talking about using a sprayer?

3. I guess I should cut the glass to make the mold like I would for making the part? The paper trick you used in your tank thread?

Thanks again Chris.

FINALLY! Someone is giving it a go and posting about it!
1. Partall: I give the parts at least two (2) coats of Partall. I've had good luck applying/removing it with those cheap blue shop paper towels. You've seen how different it is from car wax in that you can't just let it dry and wipe it off. So, I do small-ish areas at a time and don't really let it dry. Apply it and kind of just work it, keep flipping the rag, etc. I've found it works just fine this way. But work it to be sure you've removed all visible residue.
2. I tried spraying the PVA and had the same result as you - crappy. That said, I don't have a 'real' spray set up. I've taken to using my trusty blue shop towels! I pour a bit on the part and lightly spread it around. Not so heavy it leaves any puddles but not wiped off, either. I've done every one of my parts - tanks included - with this technique and it's worked just fine.
3. Don't forget, a mold is a part so you should approach it the same way: figure out the shapes of the glass you need to get around the tricky bits. The one thing you can do on a mold is to mix up some filler and use it to cover the tricky areas. Just fair in any corners/edges so the glass doesn't have to deal with any tight radius stuff and you'll avoid the most common area for bridging and air bubbles. It's a real time saver and leads to a nicer mold.
Looking forward to your pics!
Also, if you're going to keep doing this sort of thing, get the Fiberglast (or some other) training DVD/video. There's lots of good tips.
Best of luck!

 

[DougZ]

Thanks for the reply Chris. I'll get those pics up tonight, as well as maybe give it another go with making the mold. I will definitely cut the glass like I were making the actual part this time. Probably the best way to go will be to make the legs of the fender separate from the 'shell" itself.

More to come.

 

[tygaboy]

Thanks for the reply Chris. I'll get those pics up tonight, as well as maybe give it another go with making the mold. I will definitely cut the glass like I were making the actual part this time. Probably the best way to go will be to make the legs of the fender separate from the 'shell" itself.

More to come.

Doug - I may be misunderstanding what you're saying but you don't want to/shouldn't make the legs as seperate pieces. You'll end up with a weaker part, more work, etc.

 

[DougZ]

Chris..I don't mean make the part or mold legs separate, just cut individual pieces of glass for the mold making process. What I did last night was trying to use one large piece of glass, albeit a lightweight fabric, and make it stick to all the parts of the fender..that just wasn't gonna work. One piece of glass will not make all those dang bends.

I emailed myself your number, so feel free to edit your post to take it out...don't want the whole world to be able to call you, do ya? LOL I am in NJ, and you are in CA...so I can call you tonight, if that is OK. Or, I can call when I leave work, from my cell, which will be 4pm ish my time, 1pm ish your time.

What ever works for you is fine with me. Thanks again. DZ

 

[tygaboy]

Chris..I don't mean make the part or mold legs separate, just cut individual pieces of glass for the mold making process. What I did last night was trying to use one large piece of glass, albeit a lightweight fabric, and make it stick to all the parts of the fender..that just wasn't gonna work. One piece of glass will not make all those dang bends.

OK, that's what I was hoping. Yes, you'll need to cut a series of pieces to do any reasonably complex layup. Your fender qualifies. I'd expect one piece to cover the actual fender part and one or more for each leg.
I'll look for your call...

 

[DougZ]

Ok, as promised, here are the pics of what I tried to do.

These first two are just the fender itself, which is serving as the plug. In these pics, its all Partalled up and PVA'd..thus the funny sheen to it.

Gotta where the proper mask for this crap..mind you, I was doing all this in my "guest bedroom"..which is really a parts/work room.

Then was the fun task of getting the inside and all the edges covered up with tape to prevent the mold from bonding to the fender itself:

And since I didn't have a 2X4 handy, nor hot glue, I used to poster tube on my vice with double sided tape:

And the last..my trying to get the second layer of glass on before the resin set up too quickly. If I had a pic of the first layer, it actually loooked way better..but still had flaws.

 

[tygaboy]

You need to work with much smaller pieces. Remember, it's a mold so you could, as an example use 2" wide strips, lay them in various places and just build them up. There's no need to try and do it with less pieces. You'll find it MUCH simpler to work with more manageable pieces. Look back at the tank build thread and notice the way I just used random pieces of 'glass to make the mold. What you're after is complete, void-free coverage of the plug. If that means lots of small pieces, so be it.
Also, be careful of mold lock! Note the way the fender has the undercuts in front of the legs? If you can't flex the mold and the part enough to get clearance for the part to come out of the mold, you're hosed.
You may need to build a splitter plate down the top of the fender and make a 2-part mold that splits right/left.
But totally cool that you've jumped in and gotten sticky!

 

[DougZ]

You need to work with much smaller pieces. Remember, it's a mold so you could, as an example use 2" wide strips, lay them in various places and just build them up. There's no need to try and do it with less pieces. You'll find it MUCH simpler to work with more manageable pieces. Look back at the tank build thread and notice the way I just used random pieces of 'glass to make the mold. What you're after is complete, void-free coverage of the plug. If that means lots of small pieces, so be it.
Also, be careful of mold lock! Note the way the fender has the undercuts in front of the legs? If you can't flex the mold and the part enough to get clearance for the part to come out of the mold, you're hosed.
You may need to build a splitter plate down the top of the fender and make a 2-part mold that splits right/left.
But totally cool that you've jumped in and gotten sticky!

Thanks for the words of encouragement. I decided not to work on it tonight..I need to get more resin,and had chores to do tonight,shopping, laundry, etc..so I will not bother you tonight with a call. I think I got enough outta the posts you have up to keep going.

Honestly, if I wasn't in such a rush last night, I would taken more time to cut the pieces to make the mold right.It was one of those things were you know what you need to do in your head, but you say" let me try it this way anyway."...lesson learned. It at least gave me some faith that I'' still be able to use that fender on my other bike project.

On a side note, I really hope that I don't need to do a splitter plate mold..that looked like it was a bunch more work and hassle.

 

[tygaboy]

Splitter plates are never really a choice kind of thing. You either need one or you don't. Is that a stock '03-ish GSX-R fender?
If so, I have one and if you'll hold on for a minute, I'll go look at mine and tell you if I think you need a splitter. Hold on a minute...








Ok, I'm back.
Dude-ski, you need a splitter to make that fender.
UNLESS, (and this is a maybe you'd have to look at...) you eliminate the little edge that cuts back in on the back of the legs. IF you did that, you MIGHT be able to pull the part out the back of the mold.
But if it we're me, I'd do a splitter and make a 2-part mold, sorry...

 

[Zierra]

As always, it's great seeing you guys doing your CF work. Lots and lots of inspiration. Good pictures, and very valuable how-to information along with the pic's.

Anyway, for those of you who still thinks that working with CF is mystical and only for the divine, here's a little video. It's a good one hour, and it really shows some neat things, ie. how to make a mold, and vacuum bagging. Enjoy!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8801536764731290932&q=carbon+fiber

 

[DougZ]

Z: Nice link..I shall watch it today.

Chris: I guess I am back to the drawing board...time to re-read your CF tank thread for the 10th time...and actually pay atention to how to make the splitter plate this time.

? Did you have any seems in the final part, due to the spot where the splitter plate/mold meets? If so, how to get rid of the excess resin? sand, wet sand?

I may make it a semi-local West Marine systems today to get some good epoxy.

 

[tygaboy]

Z: Nice link..I shall watch it today.

Chris: I guess I am back to the drawing board...time to re-read your CF tank thread for the 10th time...and actually pay atention to how to make the splitter plate this time.

? Did you have any seems in the final part, due to the spot where the splitter plate/mold meets? If so, how to get rid of the excess resin? sand, wet sand?

That is a nice link/video. Lots of useful info.
A (good) multi-piece mold will leave seam line - but just a very thin, little epoxy ridge. I had one on my SV/MV tank up until it was painted. Not a big deal, IMO. Kind of gives it the 'hand-crafted' look.
And if you're going to paint or clear coat the part, you'll sand it anyway so the seam will be gone at that point, anyway.
It's also possible to knock the seam line down with sand paper (use as fine a grit as you can) then wet sand and polish the part. You can get a pretty nice finish. But test this sort of thing on a throw away, practice part so you know what result you're likely to get.

 

[DougZ]

Z: Nice link..I shall watch it today.

Chris: I guess I am back to the drawing board...time to re-read your CF tank thread for the 10th time...and actually pay atention to how to make the splitter plate this time.

? Did you have any seems in the final part, due to the spot where the splitter plate/mold meets? If so, how to get rid of the excess resin? sand, wet sand?

I may make it a semi-local West Marine systems today to get some good epoxy.

Yeah, I just watched that entire vid. It was pretty interesting, but didn't teach me anything I did not already learn in Chris's threads. I did find it interesting that in the last segment, he used the PVA spray to make the mold itself, but then when he made the part itself, he didn't use the PVA, but the film release, for as he caled it, satin finish. I would have liked to see him use the mold release and make that part glass instead...to each is own I guess.

I am gonna mess with making some more molds today...one set for some side covers that go under the seat on my SV1K, and maybe attack trying to make at least half of the splitter mold for the fender.

Projects, projects, projects...I will either head to the local West store to get the good resin, which I don't necessarily need today,or to a loacl dealer that cuts gaskets on site...for this little project..a clear clutch cover for my SV1K:

 

[DougZ]

OK, last post to take away from your fender thread. I got lazy, and time escaped me, so I only got around to getting everything partall'd and PVA'd..side covers and fender. I never made it out to get the get gaskets from the bike dealer, nor the resin from West Marine. Oh well, such is life.

I'll start a new thread for the side covers and leave this thread as a fender only thread....later tonight.

 

[DougZ]

As promised, a seperate thread for the side covers:

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=191648

 

[DougZ]

Last night, I was so disappointed, I was ready to either pay too much for a CF fender on Ebay, or just do the cheap thing and place the one that I was gonna use for making my mold from, on the bike and be done with it.

I called a local paint place today, Macco, to see how much it would be to get the fender painted and the guy went through so much crap about prepping it and sourcing the paint, matching the color, etc...I was no longer wishing to explore that option.

Today, driving home from work, and of course being in a little better spirits, I started to think about it. I still do not want to spend the money needed for either a vacuum pump, bagging supplies, or the effort to make a splitter mold.

The plan I came up with is to make the fender itself(as opposed to the legs), since hopefully the "tack" of the resin will be enough to hold the glass(silver CF) in place, and then fab up some legs out of aluminum plate stock that I have. It may come out great, it may come out looking like ka ka...we'll see. I will also make it from my cheapy yellowing polyester resin.....if it comes out good with that, I'll buy the good stuff from West Systems.

 

[DougZ]

OK, so, as last posted, I have another plan for making of my fender....and trying to make it with lack of vacuum bagging supplies, or pump, or a desire to make a splitter mold, not at this point anyway.

Last night, I re-partalled and PVA'd the fender that I am using as my plug, and started to make another mold..but this time, instead of trying to do the whole fender, I am only trying to make a mold of the top of the part, fender. As I have done with the other parts, I start with a very lightweight glass, less than 2 oz, get that on, and then move to a 4.5 oz glass. I had also been smarter with making my batch of resin as well...used a much smaller batch, and when it started to harden...which was well before I was done with making my mold, I just made another small one, and finished with that. I think its pretty safe to say that the hardener that comes in the bondo brand is a quick hardener.

I was smarter this time around, and only used pieces of glass no larger than about 6 X 6". Much easier to get them to curve and not get bridging of the mold.

After I woke up this morning, I was dying to se how the mold came out. I gently started prying the mold from the fender....I did not wanna break the mold or the fender. FYI....I learned something that others may already know..low pressure compressed air works great for getting the mold to come off easily, and with out scratching the part or the mold.

I got the part out and the inside of the mold was almost perfect..but the mold was pretty flimsy. So, before leaving for a monring church thing. and before I got cleaned up, I mixed up another batch of resin and added a leayer of heavy weight glass( around 15 oz), to the outside of the mold.

Its amazing, cause at this point, the mold is now nice and sturdy, and the inside is pretty darn smooth. I almost think I could right from here and start making parts, but I did not. I picked up some scratch filling high build primer, and 1500/2000 grit wet sand paper, on the way home from said church thing.

The mold ready for the primer and then with the primer.

 

[DougZ]

OK, one set back already. I wanted to see see how the primer would sand down, and much to my surprise, its started coming off...it did sand sand a little , but then I noticed it coming off in places.

The mold is made from polyester resin, and the primer was Duplicolor high build scratch filling...any chance of thosetwo having a bonding issue?