My Ninja died - help please?

[saizai]

The black/yellow cable is connected to every single (black/yellow) grouind cable on the bike, according to the wiring diagram.

Testing resistance from neg battery terminal to, e.g., the accessory plugs' b/y ground cable reads <1 ohm.

 

[Sane_Man]

Until you get a good baseline (New Battery), you are going to be chasing gremlins forever, trying to figure out what's wrong with your bike.

Not counting all the man-hours you already have invested in this over the last week, you are wasting your time trying to apply your logic to the problem you are having.

Being broke sucks, but spending $50 on a new battery is cheaper then what your time was worth so far, and in the next three weeks you will waste on this.

You are trying to troubleshoot a problem by spending zero dollars, where anyone else would normally spend upto $100 before taking it to the shop.

Have mercy on your soul.

 

[saizai]

Beh. Ordered a $38 replacement. Will continue testing once it arrives.

Still doubtful that it's only a battery issue though - that oughtn't cause it to be different voltages when in on vs off that I can think of. But all the other wiring I could think to look at seems to be in excellent condition, so I'm stumped. :/

If there's a short, why would the fuses be OK?

What could have been jiggled by my fiddling with the ground wire in the battery - enough to correct whatever wasn't making contact well enough into doing so?

Bloody obscure gremlins.

 

[saizai]

Another test btw: checked the starter relay. 0 ohm across the terminals w/ fuse removed (the main fuse is in the same little housing as the relay).

No click, but then I wouldn't blame that on the relay given that I don't even have the neutral light coming on.

 

[upwindpoint]

Saizai-
Have you ever accidentally left a battery cable loose when installing a battery? (not right now, just in general) What happens sometimes is you go to turn on the car or bike and everything just dies because of that bad/ loose connection. Same thing would happen in the scenario I described within your battery. It just takes the tiniest of connections to be able to read voltage, it's when current begins to flow that things zap.
Doesn't mean I'm right, necessarily, but it's a possibility.
Interesting reading:
http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/scripts/include.asp?include=../issues/jan01/battery.htm

 

[Diezel]

Upwind - is the battery being fubared consistent with getting a good ~12.4V reading from it (consistently) when in OFF? Seems odd that the state of the ignition would be relevant here.

NEGATIVE. The ignition has NO relation to a battery, with correct "STORAGE" values, however the battery being hooked to a system in OFF, assumes (without problems in the system) that the battery has NO LOAD. Now a battery with no load on it can show any value above 11v and be thought of as good.

I'll bet at the point when you flicked the key on, and the lights died, if you checked your battery voltage, it would be below 9v.

Never assume anything when it comes to electrical. in a 12v system that is how you either end up stranded, or busting your balls trying to find a problem that doesnt exist.

Replace the battery, or take it to a shop and have it properly load tested.

 

[saizai]

Upwind - I have not, at least not when trying to really test anything...

Dopesick - Well, yes, the battery drops to like .05V when in ON. But it goes back to 12.4V in OFF immediately.

And I *did* get it loadtested at a bike shop (Berkeley honda/suzuki), as described earlier...

 

[Diezel]

Upwind - I have not, at least not when trying to really test anything...

Dopesick - Well, yes, the battery drops to like .05V when in ON. But it goes back to 12.4V in OFF immediately.

And I *did* get it loadtested at a bike shop (Berkeley honda/suzuki), as described earlier...

Why I refered to taking it to a shop and have it properly tested.

if your battery is going from 12+ at rest, and dropping to .05v at on. You have a direct short in your system someplace.

 

[GrizzlyPeakGuy]

Your battery is fucked. Possibly an internal connection like upwindpoint said, but it's definitely fucked.

Voltage at no load doesn't tell you much about the condition of a battery or even about its state of charge. The voltage dropping to less than a volt when you switch the ignition on is (an extreme case of) the classic fucked battery symptom.

You can convince yourself of this if you have a dead AA battery and a small light bulb at home. The dead battery will show 1.5V right up until you connect it to the bulb (which will fail to light up). Then it'll read 0V.

Same thing is happening to your battery. In your case, the battery isn't even holding enough juice to operate the starter solenoid, let alone the starter.

The fact that it's an intermittent problem makes me think upwindpoint might be right about the cause of the battery's fuckedness, but even if not, it's fucked.

Make sure you fully charge the new battery before taking it anywhere near the bike. You're going to be pleasantly surprised by the results.

EDIT: The change in voltage when you switch the ignition on IS NOT evidence of a short. Stop thinking about shorts. A short is not your problem.

Your battery was probably very nearly dead before you put in the extra lights. That tiny extra load is probably what pushed it over the edge. Batteries are strange beasts, quite often they'll start showing symptoms of a long running problem VERY suddenly.

 

[saizai]

I wonder if I can perform some sort of post-mortem autopsy on the battery once I replace it, to see if anything obvious is messed up with it. Dunno how dangerous the stuff inside it is, or how hard it'd be to crack open...

 

[saizai]

GPG - It seems odd though that it'd be messed up that badly, but that the shop would tell me that it load-tested OK (read 12.5V according to the guy)...

 

[Diezel]

I wonder if I can perform some sort of post-mortem autopsy on the battery once I replace it, to see if anything obvious is messed up with it. Dunno how dangerous the stuff inside it is, or how hard it'd be to crack open...

It's Either Sulphuric acid, or HydroChloric Acid. Either way, Don't even THINK about playing with it.

 

[GrizzlyPeakGuy]

GPG - It seems odd though that it'd be messed up that badly, but that the shop would tell me that it load-tested OK (read 12.5V according to the guy)...

I'm not sure I believe that the shop load tested the battery in that case. Are you sure they applied a load to it before measuring it at 12.5V? Or did they just slap a meter across the terminals? Or maybe they tried to put it on a charger, and saw that it wasn't taking a charge? Which it wouldn't, if upwindpoint's guess is correct...

I'm suspicious. I wouldn't expect a battery in perfect condition to read that high under significant load. Much less a two year old battery that's spent time hooked into a (possibly) dubious electrical system...

Anyway, you'll find out when your new battery gets to you. Remember to charge it first, and well done, - you've done the right thing in eliminating the most likely point of failure before taking it to a shop and dropping serious bones.

 

[saizai]

Yeah, acid is bad. But the question, safety-wise, is whether there's some relatively safe way to drain & flush the stuff. On a regular (non-sealed) battery, I could just turn it upside down into a container and then flush it out with water. A sealed one doesn't have an obvious way to do that, though...

 

[GrizzlyPeakGuy]

Please don't try to play Quincy on the old battery. It sounds like you've got enough problems with your bank balance, without adding second degree chemical burns to the mix.

 

[saizai]

GPG - I don't know, as I didn't watch them do it. I specifically told them that I'd charged it, and asked them to load-test it, which the guy said that he did. I can't vouch for his reliability, as I don't know him. *shrug*

Dunno any other way for *me* to load-test it, given that at this point I can't use my bike to do so (since it's suspect). I could try putting it in my friend's (nearly identical) bike and seeing how it reacts with his, I guess...

Place I got it from claims to ship it fully charged: http://www.gruberpower.com/purchase...ubCatalogID=&intCatalogID=10005&CurCatalogID=

 

[GrizzlyPeakGuy]

That's my point. You DID load test the old battery, while it was still on the bike. Result? An eleven (plus) volt drop when running only the headlight and instrument cluster. That's a small load and a large voltage drop. i.e. It FAILED the load test.

Everything points to the battery. Don't worry about the rest of your electrical system. It sounds like it's fine. It's just going to be the battery.

EDIT: I work in Berkeley. If it turns out not to be the battery, I'll come over and have a look at it for you, if you want. And if I'm wrong, I'll also buy you a beer. But I think my money is safe...

 

[saizai]

Please don't try to play Quincy on the old battery. It sounds like you've got enough problems with your bank balance, without adding second degree chemical burns to the mix.

Awwww... but I'm curious. It's for science!

And it'd give a positive answer on whether the battery is messed up or not...

 

[saizai]

That's my point. You DID load test the old battery, while it was still on the bike. Result? An eleven (plus) volt drop when running only the headlight and instrument cluster. That's a small load and a large voltage drop. i.e. It FAILED the load test.

Well, yes, except that I'd get the same symptom from a short somewhere in the system, ne? So in that sense, I can't totally trust that as a reliable load-test (hence the idea of putting it in my friend's [working] Ninjette).

Everything points to the battery. Don't worry about the rest of your electrical system. It sounds like it's fine. It's just going to be the battery.

EDIT: I work in Berkeley. If it turns out not to be the battery, I'll come over and have a look at it for you, if you want. And if I'm wrong, I'll also buy you a beer. But I think my money is safe...

Heh, thanks for the offer. (I don't drink alcohol though...)

We'll see, once I get the new battery. I'll post with updates.

 

[Sane_Man]

You can connect the battery to an old car headlight or power inverter, if you want to place a load on the battery.

If the battery is shorted internally, all you are going to see are sulphates bridging across the plates, or deteriorated dielectric material. You don't want to touch that stuff, plus you couldn't remove it all from the battery anyway.