Rain racing?

[afmotorsports]

Because it was bad condition. Didn't afm also run half of races on rainy day. While I did total my car in snow trying to get there some guys still raced.

You weren't there (sorry 'bout your car). They ran some of the races on Saturday but Sunday it rained so hard and there was so much standing water, I don't think any racing organization would've agreed to go racing. Huge, huge rain storm, pouring buckets!! There is such a thing as too much rain to go racing even for organizations that consistently race in the rain.

I raced at street of willows in pouring rain and all races were going on until hail started falling down. AFM policy is one drop of rain and no racing, which is different than rain racing other clubs have. Last t-hill was race able under other club standards.

I agree with that. We probably could've raced at Thunderhill all day if we didn't have the current AFM rain policy. So that is ONE race I can remember in the past 20 years when AFM could've raced but did not. That's why I said 1-2% chance of racing. How do you justify to the membership changing the rain rule and essentially forcing everyone to invest in a rain setup for that 1-2% chance of using it??! If it's true that the average AFM racer sticks around for three seasons, the odds of that rider ever encountering a raceable rain event are significantly less than 1%! The Sunday at Buttonwillow was not raceable so don't count that day.

Racing in the rain at Buttonwillow and Thunderhill is not a problem. Changing the AFM rules for racing in the rain is just a solution looking for a problem! And maybe just as important, it further increases the financial demands on our racers so they can be prepared for a rain event.

Given the probability of using rain tires in AFM races, it makes about as much sense to drive to the races wearing one of these, just in case a gust of wind pushes you off into the water when going over a bridge:

 

[rob linders]

2. Inventory: difficult or impossible to source rain tires for some bikes (125s, 250s, 16.5 wheels, etc.)

3. Transportation: most tire vendor rigs are not really set up to bring a full supply of tires for both wet and dry conditions for all their customers

Given those factors, the only realistic scenario for the AFM to approve racing in the rain would be if the vast majority of AFM racers keep a complete second set of wheels with rain tires mounted. At a minimum that would add another $1,000 to the cost of a season of racing. Keep in mind that there is already a significant number of racers who rent their AMB transponder because in many cases they just can't afford to buy one!

The more 'barriers to entry' you put up, the harder it is for people to start (or continue) racing with the AFM. Can you imagine how many people would quit racing with the club if we 'required' everybody to buy a Honda EU2000 generator and tire warmers? Well, the cost of a second set of wheels with rain tires mounted is roughly the same.

btw, I don't think there's anything so dangerous about racing in the rain and I've done it myself a few times (Portland, Willow Springs, Road Atlanta). At least all those racers in areas where it rains with regularity have a reasonable probability of using their 'investment' in rain racing equipment. For AFM racers, rain racing gear would be like dragging a very expensive boat anchor... and the tires would have to be discarded after 4-5 years.

Michelin hasn't made a competitive 125 tire in probably 10 years, but this year when I was at Buttonwillow and Thunderhill, I had Dunlop rain tires that could have been mounted or maybe were already mounted, I don't really remember. We actually ran Bridgestone tires in the non-rain race events all year on the 125, Moriwaki, SV650 and now on the 600. On the SV I was actually running 250 tires and Tyler set mulitple track records with them. Maybe Michelin doesn't have 125 or 250 tires, but other vendors do.

Two vendors said they don't have a problem and 1 vendor is saying he would have a problem.....so how is that most? A serious racer will pre-order a set of rains if there is a chance of rain and they want to race in the rain.

If I want to throw noise around about barriers of entry, we could all just spec a super hard tire track day tire that would last half the season....now that would save the racers some money.

I would say it rains more in N. Cal than it does in S. Cal, so I'm not sure how Willow Springs racers get more chances to use their rains than N. Cal racers would. I do know they raced in March or April and it rained all weekend. I also know it is supposed to race this weekend. Well..the Feel Like a Pro group is coming to Willow to race and so are a group of guys from Washington. I bet they feel much better knowing that if it rains they can still race if they want to.

I wonder how wera (and all others) does it, even with all sprint and endurance races going on same weekend. I raced in VIR and we crashed 3 times in same race, in fact most teams crashed twice and race was still on to the end .
Shit, I raced in rain before there was any speakers around track, back in the days you actually had to pay attention when your race is starting, rain or not.

Magic?

Because it was bad condition. Didn't afm also run half of races on rainy day.
While I did total my car in snow trying to get there some guys still raced.
I raced at street of willows in pouring rain and all races were going on until hail started falling down. AFM policy is one drop of rain and no racing, which is different than rain racing other clubs have. Last t-hill was race able under other club standards.

This is the part that bothers me. At the Buttonwillow round, I talked with a new to AFM racer we raced with in Minis and WERA. He even spoke with Chris and felt he was assured we would get the races in. I told him, sorry to disappoint you but there is some kind of "brick rule".... 3 drops or 7 drops on the brick, not really sure and the program is shut down.

After that weekend he said he would never run AFM again. I tried talking him into going again and he said no way.

Obviously, I'm not talking about racing in a hurricane, monsoon, or an earthquake, just rain racing like other organizations run.

 

[rob linders]

I agree with that. We probably could've raced at Thunderhill all day if we didn't have the current AFM rain policy. So that is ONE race I can remember in the past 20 years when AFM could've raced but did not. That's why I said 1-2% chance of racing. How do you justify to the membership changing the rain rule and essentially forcing everyone to invest in a rain setup for that 1-2% chance of using it??! If it's true that the average AFM racer sticks around for three seasons, the odds of that rider ever encountering a raceable rain event are significantly less than 1%! The Sunday at Buttonwillow was not raceable so don't count that day.

Racing in the rain at Buttonwillow and Thunderhill is not a problem. Changing the AFM rules for racing in the rain is just a solution looking for a problem! And maybe just as important, it further increases the financial demands on our racers so they can be prepared for a rain event.

Given the probability of using rain tires in AFM races, it makes about as much sense to drive to the races wearing one of these, just in case a gust of wind pushes you off

Well, I haven't been around 20 years at AFM to know if you are giving accurate stats. I can say that (2 of 8) 25% of the races this year had races not run because of rain. Maybe the climate is changing, who knows, looks like Willow Springs will have two rain races this year. If you use your three years and out average, and it never rains again, then I have an 8% (2 of 24) chance of using my rains. Well guess what, I've run old rains and they still work, so if I get out of racing in 3 years I can just sell them to the next guy.

Once again, if it is financial, spec hard tires like they do in kart racing and get those tires to last a bit longer and all the racers can save a bunch of money. Oh....I'm guessing you wouldn't like that idea?

 

[TWF]

Point some make here is that you don't know how much rain will fall down. It can be raceable or not. If raceable you lost bunch of money. Didn't make up races try to get that money back?
You don't know if in future you have one of this rain outs every year or not and how hard it will rain. Can you take hit like that 2-3 years in row or you bet it will not happen? Obviously you can't go by past because if you do this would have not happen this year.

 

[afmotorsports]

Michelin hasn't made a competitive 125 tire in probably 10 years, but this year when I was at Buttonwillow and Thunderhill, I had Dunlop rain tires that could have been mounted or maybe were already mounted, I don't really remember. We actually ran Bridgestone tires in the non-rain race events all year on the 125, Moriwaki, SV650 and now on the 600. On the SV I was actually running 250 tires and Tyler set mulitple track records with them. Maybe Michelin doesn't have 125 or 250 tires, but other vendors do.

Easy tiger, did you skip your meds today? Michelin hasn't built a 125GP tire in over 10 years and a 250GP tire in at least 5 years. What does that have to do with anything? My point was that sourcing rain tires for the less common bikes from any vendor could be problematic. Every single tire vendor has run into inventory issues with regular racing tires at one time or another that were beyond his control, so you think all of a sudden coming up with a hundred or more rain tires is a walk in the park?? Don't just take my word, ask my buddy Chris from Pirelli how many times he's had to make special trips to intercept a screwed up tire shipment that wouldn't have made it in time for the races otherwise? I still have fond memories of driving all night from San Jose to Sacramento and then to Buttonwillow after one of our shipping companies 'lost' a container for a few days and we wouldn't have had all the tires we needed that weekend if I didn't drive out there to grab them. You have no idea how much ALL the tire vendors bust their butts to make sure the tires are there at the track and sometimes despite our best efforts, we just can't get them. So yeah, trying to manage a sufficient inventory of rain tires in a region that doesn't usually encounter rain... not as easy as you might think!

A serious racer will pre-order a set of rains if there is a chance of rain and they want to race in the rain.

You know, somebody else used that line and I'm not sure what qualifies you or anyone else to determine what's a "serious racer". The AFM doesn't require all racers to be "serious" - some of us maybe enjoy being less serious - just like we don't require everyone to attend trackdays to prepare for an AFM race. Everybody has different levels of commitment to the sport and it's not your place or mine to judge others and tell them what they *should* buy or do for their racing hobby.

I would say it rains more in N. Cal than it does in S. Cal, so I'm not sure how Willow Springs racers get more chances to use their rains than N. Cal racers would.

Rob, you are a fricken goof when you answer your own question in the very next sentence!

I do know they raced in March or April and it rained all weekend. I also know it is supposed to rain this weekend.

WSMC races quite often in the rain, particularly in the spring. I raced that series for three years straight and had several rain races in the mid 90's. If AFM encountered rain as often as WSMC, the rain policy would be very different.

 

[afmotorsports]

Well, I haven't been around 20 years at AFM to know if you are giving accurate stats. I can say that (2 of 8) 25% of the races this year had races not run because of rain. Maybe the climate is changing, who knows, looks like Willow Springs will have two rain races this year. If you use your three years and out average, and it never rains again, then I have an 8% (2 of 24) chance of using my rains.

Buttonwillow was not raceable even if you had rain tires. And I hope you're not helping your kid with his math homework...

Once again, if it is financial, spec hard tires like they do in kart racing and get those tires to last a bit longer and all the racers can save a bunch of money. Oh....I'm guessing you wouldn't like that idea?

No, I wouldn't because I don't want to see my friends highside and get hurt. You probably haven't figured it out yet but I don't pay my mortgage with money from tire sales...

 

[TWF]

WSMC races quite often in the rain, particularly in the spring. I raced that series for three years straight and had several rain races in the mid 90's. If AFM encountered rain as often as WSMC, the rain policy would be very different.

I wonder where they get their tires from? Or the guys up north that race in rain quite often.

 

[eeeeek]

I would say it rains more in N. Cal than it does in S. Cal, so I'm not sure how Willow Springs racers get more chances to use their rains than N. Cal racers would.

The AFM schedule does not include Late October, November, December, January, February...

 

[TWF]

No, I wouldn't because I don't want to see my friends highside and get hurt. You probably haven't figured it out yet but I don't pay my mortgage with money from tire sales...

What you do with it? I buy toys with my money

 

[afmotorsports]

I wonder where they get their tires from? Or the guys up north that race in rain quite often.

They get them from local vendors who stock and sell a whole bunch of rain tires! If you go further north, they apparently take it a step further:

I wonder if Portland and Seattle racers bitch about not racing when there's ice on their racetrack and point out the vendors in Alaska and Canada who have the spiked motorcycle tires!

 

[rob linders]

Buttonwillow was not raceable even if you had rain tires. And I hope you're not helping your kid with his math homework...

No, I wouldn't because I don't want to see my friends highside and get hurt. You probably haven't figured it out yet but I don't pay my mortgage with money from tire sales...

So what math did I mess up....you said a 1% chance. I just showed you 2 out of 8 races had rain outs and if it never rained again in the region and I lasted your number of 3 years that would be 3 years x 8 races per year or 24 races. Using this year as the first year
2 out of 8 rain outs = 25%
0 out of 8 2012 = 0%
0 out of 8 2013 = 0%

So for my new math skills that is 2 out of 24 races that had a rain out if I quit after 3 years like you said in your average. That is 8% of the events I participate in are rain outs. If I still stick with your numbers and it never rains again for 10 years that would be 2 in 80 or 2.5%, so to finally get to 1% would take 25 years at 8 races per year counting I started this year and already experience the only 2 rainouts that will ever happen in N. Cal.

How am I the goof that doesn't get Math?

 

[TWF]

They get them from local vendors who stock and sell a whole bunch of rain tires!

If it does not rain they would not stock them. If afm races in rain local vendors would have to stock them. Obviously they are available.
On other hand some vendors run out of dry tires completely before season is over. It is not afm fault they do.

 

[LongGoneJohn]

Rob,

I don't know how else to put this. Changing a long standing rule, likely increasing costs of every race, rain or dry, for every racer, due to increased insurance costs merely for you and what, a dozen other people? Maybe two dozen? For something that happens twice, okay lets say five times every decade?

No fucking way. I hope that's how the board views it also.

 

[TWF]

How am I the goof that doesn't get Math?

You forgot to assume it will not rain next 25 years, it was on weather channel this morning

 

[afmotorsports]

How am I the goof that doesn't get Math?

You are simply because you're asking the question. Look up 'sample size', grab a couple of statistics books and hire a math tutor for your kid 'cause you're not smarter than a 5th grader!

 

[TWF]

Rob,

I don't know how else to put this. Changing a long standing rule, likely increasing costs of every race, rain or dry, for every racer, due to increased insurance costs merely for you and what, a dozen other people? Maybe two dozen? For something that happens twice, okay lets say five times every decade?

Years ago afm used to live large and could afford rain outs. This days they have hard time without rain outs and when it happens it hurts.
Rules are not cast in stones.

 

[afmotorsports]

You forgot to assume it will not rain next 25 years, it was on weather channel this morning

Check yourself!

 

[TWF]

Alex,
You make it sound impossible, something that is done every day in every part of this country and world.

 

[rob linders]

a

Easy tiger, did you skip your meds today? Michelin hasn't built a 125GP tire in over 10 years and a 250GP tire in at least 5 years. What does that have to do with anything? My point was that sourcing rain tires for the less common bikes from any vendor could be problematic.

You know, somebody else used that line and I'm not sure what qualifies you or anyone else to determine what's a "serious racer". The AFM doesn't require all racers to be "serious" - some of us maybe enjoy being less serious - just like we don't require everyone to attend trackdays to prepare for an AFM race. Everybody has different levels of commitment to the sport and it's not your place or mine to judge others and tell them what they *should* buy or do for their racing hobby.

Rob, you are a fricken goof when you answer your own question in the very next sentence!

WSMC races quite often in the rain, particularly in the spring. I raced that series for three years straight and had several rain races in the mid 90's. If AFM encountered rain as often as WSMC, the rain policy would be very different.

Well I was using your point about 125/250 tires from above that you said couldn't be sourced. If you can't source them because Michelin quit making them, IMHO that invalidates your argument. Other vendors have them.

Regarding "Serious Racers",I was answering your question about you not being able to source the tires for your racers, or having enough machines, or a big enough truck, etc. IMO if a Michelin racer, knows that there is a possibility of rain, and wants to race in the rain with an organization that allows it, he/she will probably pick up the phone and call to make sure you are going to have some rains. Heck they might even pick them up beforehand, since you may not have a big enough truck to haul them in.

Still trying to figure out how I'm a goof that already answered my own question? I am not and will not tell anyone they should race in the rain. I am however an advocate of allowing people the opportunity if they desire. Last I checked we still live in America.

 

[afmotorsports]

Alex,
You make it sound impossible, something that is done every day in every part of this country and world.

No, I didn't say impossible. Costco in Santa Cruz sells (POS) surfboards, does the Costco in Reno sell a lot of surfboards too? I'm sure they could because it's certainly not 'impossible' but logistically it's not that easy. btw, I don't know of any motorcycle shops in SF bay area that stock snowmobiles either. Do you get my point???