Rain racing?

[rob linders]

If everyone thinks I'm an idiot because I think it would financially help the club to race in the rain, so be it. I run a business and when I have fixed costs that continue no matter what and an income stream that goes to zero in the rain, it doesn't seem to hard for me to modify my business plan.

Having said that, I also think AFM could be run more like a business and not like a government agency that thinks there is an unlimited amount of cash continuing to come in. My first boss told me to be a successful business person you had to make reasonably quick decisions. Not all of them are correct, but oh well then you make another decision and move on. You have to try and change with the times and continue to make things better.

If you don't, you wither away and die.

 

[TWF]

No, I didn't say impossible. Costco in Santa Cruz sells (POS) surfboards, does the Costco in Reno sell a lot of surfboards too? I'm sure they could because it's certainly not 'impossible' but logistically it's not that easy. btw, I don't know of any motorcycle shops in SF bay area that stock snowmobiles either. Do you get my point???

Your point is worthless once afm decide to race in rain. That is part you don't get. If nobody in SF is buying snowmobile what is point having bunch of them on floor. I am sure you can order one in that same store. Don't you need market first?
You don't bring dirt bike tires to afm event either. Who would you sell it to? Add dirt bike race on schedule (there is place at T-hill) and you will bring and sell them.

 

[afmotorsports]

Well I was using your point about 125/250 tires from above that you said couldn't be sourced. If you can't source them because Michelin quit making them, IMHO that invalidates your argument. Other vendors have them.

Rob, I'm talking rain tires not just regular racing tires. In the N. California market there are very, very few rain tires sold. I've been doing this for over 10 years, I have a pretty good idea. I have actually sold a lot more rain tires to trackday riders than racers because the racing seasons starts in March and ends in October. Trackday guys are riding in November, December, January and February when there's a higher chance of rain.

Still trying to figure out how I'm a goof that already answered my own question?

You asked "I would say it rains more in N. Cal than it does in S. Cal, so I'm not sure how Willow Springs racers get more chances to use their rains than N. Cal racers would" and in the next sentence you said WSMC already raced in the rain twice this year and will probably race in the rain this weekend. That's more opportunities to race in the rain in ONE year than AFM in TWENTY years!!

 

[TWF]

That's more opportunities to race in the rain in ONE year than AFM in TWENTY years!!

So weather man was right this morning, no rain next 20 years
Glad we can do statistics for future now.

 

[afmotorsports]

Your point is worthless once afm decide to race in rain. That is part you don't get.

Dude, just because the AFM could 'decide to race in the rain' doesn't mean there will be rain!!! The AFM could decide they will race on snow too but unless we get snow at Buttonwillow or Thunderhill it doesn't mean squat! You can't 'create' a market for racing in the rain (or snow) when we hardly ever have any rain at Buttonwillow or Thunderhill. It doesn't work like that unless you have some secret Yugo-rain-dance I'm not aware of!

 

[machete]

Alex,
You make it sound impossible, something that is done every day in every part of this country and world.

this.
We are probably the only ones that DON'T race in the rain.
are there any other clubs in the states that don't race in the rain at all?

also, all this communications on track stuff is curious. exactly how do they do it at a trackday where it's raining? they still need cornerworkers and communications, no?
am I to understand that anytime it's raining at a track (during a trackday) there is no real comms? cause they don't work in the rain?

I know we have this conversation off and on. It spurs a healthy debate, especially in the off season.

Just keep it civil guys, no need for name bashing and stuff like that.

points per race: those that worry that they're going to be forced to race in the rain, to retain their championships/points lead, there is no need, imo. In my first proposal/gathering of info, the idea was that IF a rain day ocurred and IF we went out and raced, that the races would be there to try and generate SOME income, rather than a total loss. So no points would be awarded for that race, or any rain races for the time being. Giving people the option to sit it out, if they're in the championship points, or to go slower than normal (to start getting experience), and go out and race. besides, it's only supposed to happen once every 10 years or some shit like that (or two this year).

 

[TWF]

Dude, just because the AFM could 'decide to race in the rain' doesn't mean there will be rain!!!

Exactly, you don't know if it will rain or not. If it does next year like it did this year you will have nobody to sell dry tires to. You may start 2nd alumni proposal to keep afm alive.

 

[TWF]

points per race: those that worry that they're going to be forced to race in the rain, to retain their championships/points lead, there is no need, imo. In my first proposal/gathering of info, the idea was that IF a rain day ocurred and IF we went out and raced, that the races would be there to try and generate SOME income, rather than a total loss. So no points would be awarded for that race, or any rain races for the time being. Giving people the option to sit it out, if they're in the championship points, or to go slower than normal (to start getting experience), and go out and race. besides, it's only supposed to happen once every 10 years or some shit like that (or two this year).

I don't think that is good idea, you either race or don't. Your choice.

 

[afmotorsports]

Glad we can do statistics for future now.

Ehhhhh... that's kind of the point of analyzing statistically significant data, to try to come up with a reasonable prediction for the future... When we have had ONE event in the past 20 years that we could've raced in the rain (Thunderhill, not Buttonwillow!), how else do you estimate the future of AFM racing in the rain??

Some of the folks in the bay area may remember that every few years we get a cold winter storm and we get a few inches of snow on Mt. Hamilton. When I was in high school, a group of us lunatics grabbed our old skis, strapped our gear to a pack and hiked up Mt. Hamilton so we could say we skied in the SF bay area. We wanted to hike way up to the observatory but I think after climbing a couple of miles we were so tired that we said 'hey, good enough', put on our ski gear and made one run down the hill.

It would actually make more sense to keep an extra set of beater snow skis for Mt. Hamilton snow skiing than a set of rain tires for AFM races!

 

[machete]

I don't think that is good idea, you either race or don't. Your choice.

agreed. but trying to bring this seemingly impossible idea to the AFM needed some kind of incentive.

 

[TWF]

Ehhhhh... that's kind of the point of analyzing statistically significant data, to try to come up with a reasonable prediction for the future...

Sure, look economy over last 20 years and it is not that bad as last 3 years show.
By your statistics I should have a lot more money now

 

[LongGoneJohn]

Years ago afm used to live large and could afford rain outs. This days they have hard time without rain outs and when it happens it hurts.
Rules are not cast in stones.

I'm not saying the AFM can afford rainouts and shouldn't be looking at ways to save the cost of rainouts. I'm saying that adjusting all the things that need to be adjusted, adding to the cost of the racers, adding to the cost per-race for all the races, for every racer to cover increased insurance premiums, is not the way to do it.

I don't have the numbers in front of me, but maybe first entry or first entry AND practice are forfeited immediately upon registration. No matter what you never get that back. If by the end of the year the AFM has enough money left over to run an entire year of rainouts, great, they can lower entry costs the NEXT year with that money. If it rainsout, they don't lose their ass and we all still get to race.

Seems much more reasonable and effective use of an already slimming commodity (money), rather than requiring people who want to race to buy an extra set of wheels, a set of rain tires that they may or may not use in a year, or two, or five, or simply sit out and not race at all (like me and probably 75% of the paddock). Sure, there will be some riders out there paying, but who? Really it's only going to be the top guys in the top classes, which is what? 5 in each of the top classes? So 25 guys? Plus a couple stragglers?

The reality for most racers is if you continue to increase costs to cover things like the increased insurance, we'll simply race less racers per year. I mean, most of us aren't in a championship fight, so if I can skip a Thunderhill round, or a Buttonwillow round, and race only the Infineon rounds because it's closer and more affordable due to increased entry fee's and gas, I will. I wouldn't be the only one either. So then what? The AFM loses even more money because instead of running the entire season, a lot of the middle-pack guys may only run a half season. And who is the bread and butter of the AFM as far as finances are considered? It isn't the top 5 guys, it's the 300+ other guys.

 

[afmotorsports]

Exactly, you don't know if it will rain or not.

Jesus Christ, have you been taking debate lessons from my wife???! If you race in N. California, there is a very low probability of having a rain race in 2012 and if you race in Seattle there is a very low probability of NOT having a rain race in 2012. There are also statistics for getting hit by lightning (240,000 annually out of 7 billion) and the probability of getting hit by lightning TWICE is infinitely small but maybe it happens: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4282938...lightning-striking-twice-maybe-not-even-once/

 

[TWF]

If you race in N. California, there is a very low probability of having a rain race in 2012

Yes, there is. Last year at this time there was even less, by statistics.
Hey, you can always do make up races. Money racers spend on driving twice and spending more on make up race could also buy set of rains
In Rob's case maybe couple sets

 

[TWF]

The reality for most racers is if you continue to increase costs to cover things like the increased insurance, we'll simply race less racers per year.

Any way you put it you (afm racer) will pay for this, not racing in rain or racing in rain.

 

[Ducky_Fresh]

I don't think the tire guys have trucks big enough to bring enough rain tires to support all of their riders "if" it happens.

The only way I see it working, is if we all pre-buy a set of rain tires for each our race bikes and sit on them like insurance, bringing them to the every race weekend. Which I'm personally OK with. The tire guys might really like this, since they'll instantly sell 100 sets of tires!

Oh yeah, are rain tires prod legal?

 

[LongGoneJohn]

Any way you put it you (afm racer) will pay for this, not racing in rain or racing in rain.

You've been doing this far longer than I have. I'll take your word on it for this one.

 

[TWF]

I don't think the tire guys have trucks big enough to bring enough rain tires to support all of their riders "if" it happens.

Did they stop selling bigger trucks or trailers?
Even Alex agrees afm should not make rules for other businesses.

 

[TWF]

You've been doing this far longer than I have. I'll take your word on it for this one.

You don't have to. If afm runs out of money only people to make up that money are members. You paying it one way or another. Reason fee's go up. There is no money coming from outside that I know of, all of it is from you racers.

 

[Ducky_Fresh]

No, you're right. They either step up to the plate then or they don't. Their choice.

And really, I think it is a pretty simple deal. Vote in rain racing (assuming insurance and safety are not an issue, so no infineon, etc). If it looks like rain, bring your set of rains with you. If it doesn't look like rain, leave them at home. Really, what's $400 in the grand scheme of things?

How does this affect Feel Like a Pro though!??!?!?!