Red Light Camera Ticket Thread!

[Gabe]

How about we toss this into our debate salad--is someone a criminal if they don't know they're committing a crime? If I park on a street and the government doesn't post a no-parking sign and then tickets me for parking in an unmarked no-parking zone, am I a criminal?

If I enter an intersection on a red light thinking that it will stay yellow until my car enters the intersection (and then the light changes abruptly), does that make me a criminal--ie one with criminal intent? Why? Was I behaving recklessly? Isn't "recklessness" something with a community standard? Aren't we all reckless by community standards since we ride motorcycles?

 

[bpw]

How about we toss this into our debate salad--is someone a criminal if they don't know they're committing a crime? If I park on a street and the government doesn't post a no-parking sign and then tickets me for parking in an unmarked no-parking zone, am I a criminal?

If I enter an intersection on a red light thinking that it will stay yellow until my car enters the intersection (and then the light changes abruptly), does that make me a criminal--ie one with criminal intent? Why? Was I behaving recklessly? Isn't "recklessness" something with a community standard? Aren't we all reckless by community standards since we ride motorcycles?

Ignorance of the law is rarely an excuse. That is why the law says parking areas need to be signed. We don't expect people to research the local parking laws before they visit.

Having a drivers license assumes a certain level of competence and knowledge, so I doubt being surprised by the light changing would be a defense unless to yellow is timed to be shorter than required.

I get that the ticket is expensive, but under normal circumstances if you wound up running a light it is because you screwed up in some way. Seeing as this is a screw-up that can have really high costs to other road users (especially motos) I don't have a ton of sympathy for the cost of the ticket.

 

[Yakoo752]

I am currently using California Traffic Defenders to fight an erroneous red light camera ticket.

It costs $250 to contest my infraction with them.

I will know in 6-9 months the results.

 

[Gabe]

Ignorance of the law is rarely an excuse. That is why the law says parking areas need to be signed. We don't expect people to research the local parking laws before they visit.

Having a drivers license assumes a certain level of competence and knowledge, so I doubt being surprised by the light changing would be a defense unless to yellow is timed to be shorter than required.

I get that the ticket is expensive, but under normal circumstances if you wound up running a light it is because you screwed up in some way. Seeing as this is a screw-up that can have really high costs to other road users (especially motos) I don't have a ton of sympathy for the cost of the ticket.

I wasn't claiming ignorance of the law. When there is no need for the prosecution to show the mental state of the actor, the prosecution must show the defendant violated the exact precise letter of the law. I am saying there's reasonable doubt in this case. I really don't know if the driver broke the law or not. Seriously. I don't. And I'm not about to accept the city's biased and conflicted opinion just because I may have broken it.

 

[CABilly]

Only if red flex is your accuser. They are gathering the evidence, the state/county/city is the accuser. No one is arguing the validity of the evidence and the OP isn't admitting whether he ran the light or not, only the constitutionality of the system.

Everyone involved with evidence collection, processing, and analysis should be available for questioning. That's the tech in AZ who initially reviews it and forwards it to the citing LEA, the tech who last calibrated the camera, the person who timed the intersection lights, and so forth. They are all witnesses that should be deposed and available to provide sworn testimony. The government is the accuser, but they base their accusation on data provided by third parties. Those third parties must be held accountable as well as the government.

We all have a presumption of innocence and the government must prove its case beyond a shadow of a doubt. I realize this is just an infraction, but it's serious business. Maybe you or I could afford $600 bucks to just get on with our lives, but for most people, that's a crushing blow. Like, half a month's income. Taking that hit living paycheck to paycheck could be devastating. All for potentially rolling a stop..or faulty equipment, or even possibly intentionally miscalibrated equipment.

 

[HappyHighwayman]

I still don't get also how they can tow your car which is ALLEGEDLY blocking someone's driveway and need to provide no evidence that it was in fact parked illegally.

What a government approved scam

 

[dravnx]

Everyone involved with evidence collection, processing, and analysis should be available for questioning. That's the tech in AZ who initially reviews it and forwards it to the citing LEA, the tech who last calibrated the camera, the person who timed the intersection lights, and so forth. They are all witnesses that should be deposed and available to provide sworn testimony. The government is the accuser, but they base their accusation on data provided by third parties. Those third parties must be held accountable as well as the government.

We all have a presumption of innocence and the government must prove its case beyond a shadow of a doubt. I realize this is just an infraction, but it's serious business. Maybe you or I could afford $600 bucks to just get on with our lives, but for most people, that's a crushing blow. Like, half a month's income. Taking that hit living paycheck to paycheck could be devastating. All for potentially rolling a stop..or faulty equipment, or even possibly intentionally miscalibrated equipment.

This ain't a capital murder case on Law and Order. Its an infraction. A signed document stating vehicle so and so violated CVC such and such on the fifth of blah by a empteenth of a second and here is the photo showing the vehicle X feet past the stop line. Pay your fine, next case please.

Sorry if the cost of violating a CVC is so high. The intersection is posted, the camera is in view, the fine for violating the infraction is acknowledged. If one accident is prevented because someone knows to slow down going through the intersection (as the PO admits) the fine has done it's job. Fines are supposed to hurt.

 

[jdhu]

I wasn't claiming ignorance of the law. When there is no need for the prosecution to show the mental state of the actor, the prosecution must show the defendant violated the exact precise letter of the law. I am saying there's reasonable doubt in this case. I really don't know if the driver broke the law or not. Seriously. I don't. And I'm not about to accept the city's biased and conflicted opinion just because I may have broken it.

Well, then, "the driver" should fight it? The constitutional discussion is kind of interesting, but I guess like jh2586, I'm missing the point.

You are talking about proportionality of fines, some constitutional evidentiary issues, etc. Isn't the bottom line that you, I mean "the driver," questions a ticket?

 

[gen.malfunction]

For anyone who has the time or inclination to fight tickets on their own, this sight has a pretty good approach:

http://helpigotaticket.com/tut/index.html

 

[Gabe]

This ain't a capital murder case on Law and Order. Its an infraction. A signed document stating vehicle so and so violated CVC such and such on the fifth of blah by a empteenth of a second and here is the photo showing the vehicle X feet past the stop line. Pay your fine, next case please.

Sorry if the cost of violating a CVC is so high. The intersection is posted, the camera is in view, the fine for violating the infraction is acknowledged. If one accident is prevented because someone knows to slow down going through the intersection (as the PO admits) the fine has done it's job. Fines are supposed to hurt.

If I get one more point I won't be able to work in my current profession for 2 years. Is that a proportionate punishment for being .3 seconds late into an intersection? $50,000 or more in lost revenue?

I'll bet people made arguments like yours in Stalinist Russia, too. "If you know making statements against our Dear Leader will get you sent to the gulag, well, you knew what you were doing and should accept the consequences. More gruel, comrade?"

 

[jh2586]

If I get one more point I won't be able to work in my current profession for 2 years. Is that a proportionate punishment for being .3 seconds late into an intersection? $50,000 or more in lost revenue?

Yeah but if it's your third offense, your leniency has already dwindled.

 

[Aj510]

If one accident is prevented because someone knows to slow down going through the intersection (as the PO admits) the fine has done it's job. Fines are supposed to hurt.

^^^^^^^ THIS IS THE PROBLEM WITH THE UNITED STATES IN ITS CURRENT FORM AND ESPECIALLY CALIFORNIA

Can I have the keys to all your motor vehicles please and thanks? Oh and everyone else ln the planet too since someone dies everyday from a motor vehicle accident, it's just better we all walk everywhere. I mean it would save MORE Than 1 life.

+1 fight every ticket

 

[Aj510]

Yeah but if it's your third offense, your leniency has already dwindled.

Is 3 the magical number? Why not 2 or 5 or 100? What if I drive .5 miles a day and got 2 infractions or what if I drive 1000000 miles a day and got 5 infractions does that magical number 3 still hold the same water?

 

[dravnx]

^^^^^^^ THIS IS THE PROBLEM WITH THE UNITED STATES IN ITS CURRENT FORM AND ESPECIALLY CALIFORNIA

Can I have the keys to all your motor vehicles please and thanks? Oh and everyone else ln the planet too since someone dies everyday from a motor vehicle accident, it's just better we all walk everywhere. I mean it would save MORE Than 1 life.

+1 fight every ticket

So what do you propose to do? Eliminate vehicle codes, eliminate all fines and repercussions for violating laws established by our legislature? If you don't like a law, you go through the process of changing it, not violating it and then crying when you have to pay the price.

If your living is dependent on not getting too many points, one would think an extra modicum of care would be taken. I get drug tested at work, it's the law and in my profession, it's a good law. "What, I only smoked one joint" how can you fire me, its unconstitutional to prosecute me because I'll lose my job". See what I'm saying?

 

[jh2586]

So what do you propose to do? Eliminate vehicle codes, eliminate all fines and repercussions for violating laws established by our legislature? If you don't like a law, you go through the process of changing it, not violating it and then crying when you have to pay the price.

If your living is dependent on not getting too many points, one would think an extra modicum of care would be taken. I get drug tested at work, it's the law and in my profession, it's a good law. "What, I only smoked one joint" how can you fire me, its unconstitutional to prosecute me because I'll lose my job". See what I'm saying?

This. So much this. Especially the bolded part.

 

[jh2586]

Is 3 the magical number? Why not 2 or 5 or 100? What if I drive .5 miles a day and got 2 infractions or what if I drive 1000000 miles a day and got 5 infractions does that magical number 3 still hold the same water?

It's written clear as day, 3 strikes you're out (or whatever the actual number is). You knew about it right? You had 3 chances in what, 4 years?

As mentioned earlier, if you don't like the law, there is a process to change it through legislation. But breaking it and ONLY then crying about it (as if it only is atrocious when it affects you) shows me that you just want to get out of a ticket freebie style.

 

[Gabe]

Yeah but if it's your third offense, your leniency has already dwindled.

Actually, second offense. Most driving jobs will drop you/not hire you with more than one point.

But if it just saves one life...

Won't somebody please think of the children!

 

[dravnx]

Is 3 the magical number? Why not 2 or 5 or 100? What if I drive .5 miles a day and got 2 infractions or what if I drive 1000000 miles a day and got 5 infractions does that magical number 3 still hold the same water?

There has to be some number that's acceptable to a reasonable person. I think it's pretty reasonable to be able to avoid 3 points or whatever number you're allowed to have, especially if it affects my ability to support myself and my family.

 

[Aj510]

So what do you propose to do? Eliminate vehicle codes, eliminate all fines and repercussions for violating laws established by our legislature? If you don't like a law, you go through the process of changing it, not violating it and then crying when you have to pay the price.

If your living is dependent on not getting too many points, one would think an extra modicum of care would be taken. I get drug tested at work, it's the law and in my profession, it's a good law. "What, I only smoked one joint" how can you fire me, its unconstitutional to prosecute me because I'll lose my job". See what I'm saying?

I propose making the punishment reflective of the crime committed, as was stated a little earlier $600 is a drop in the bucket to some but is the bucket for others. Getting a ticket is supposed to be a detergent and a hey wtf are you doing you can't do that here's your ticket for $200. Especially if it's a victimless crime. What if I'm joe Bob and I'm struggling to pay my outrageous rent because I live in ca but hey I'm busting my ass paying my bills but that's all I can do and because I make more Than 20k I can't get gvmt assistance and damn I just got hit by this red light ticket that's $600 I don't have and I can't afford to pay it even on a payment plan because they want an extra 100$ a month I don't have so know I get a warrenty because of a traffic ticket going unpayed, have a run in with a cop for whatever reason end up in jail can't post bail lose my job and the cycle continues.

The average American has less than 5k In savings. How does that $600 fine look now?

And you can't compare drugs to traffic violations and BTW just get a club card so you can smoke all the joints you want. Knowing that traffic fines can effectively cost someone thier job in an already struggling economy our oh so wise elected officials should say ok if we are going to make 3 violations a hard fast law before we suspend your license and you lose your driving job even though your violations were on your own personal time maybe we out to have a clause stating that if you do xxxx type of profession and drive xxxx miles a day or month or year but have obly gotten 1 violation every 100k miles you were driving then damn in our book keep on truckin!

now if your hitting the crystal pipe and doing my accounting you got some splainin to do

 

[dravnx]

jh beat me to it.