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S100RR Traction Control

Nick said:
My wife went into emergency labor while we were on a plane flight. Thank God there was an S1000R on board. It delivered our baby at 35,000 feet and then served the patrons of the flight from the drink cart.
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this is seriously getting old :|
 
Wack, so what you're saying is dumbass riders who do stupid shit on public roads are the target market for the S1000RR?
 
Ogg said:
Isn't this kind of the same thing as saying we should just do away with ABS on cars and learn to drive better?
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No it is not. You have four wheels on a car, and one pedal on the floor (for activating the brakes on those four wheels). If the difference that makes isn't apparent .... then.... You need more education.
 
Cheyenne said:
Is that still true in the rain?



I feel like every time I make a mistake, especially in the wet, it teaches me to not make that mistake again, or at least gets me closer to that.

Does the same effect occur if TC is there? Do you still get enough feedback to tell you that you've stepped over the line, or more importantly, just put your toes on the line?

One of the most important moments of my motorcycle life so far is when the back tire rotated a turn or two on a damp road...would I have noticed it happening on a bike with TC?

Most of all...will TC prevent me from learning to exit corners in the wet while slightly spinning the rear? Because if so...how can it really make me safer if it prevents me from learning the ultimate safety skill...control in minimal traction situations.

Also...I would love an S100RR...even with TC.
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That addresses this issue very well. We had traction control way before this Electronic management came along. It was the rider looking at what was coming, and judging. Drawing on what the rider knew about the bikes abilities, combined with the riders abilities, and using the controls at their disposal.

There is a huge difference between what is a now necessary competitive edge on the race track, and what is desirable on the public road.

For a racer (with the support of a race team) Traction control is a "tune-able" tool. They adjust for what the racer can best use, at every track, and the conditions at that track.

The public road user isn't adjusting for squat. The public road user (typically) is just counting on the Map to come up with the assistance to cover the blunders of the doesn't bother to learn how to ride, Rider.
 
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After this weekends WSBK races I continue with my opinion.
The S1000RR isnt fit to sniff the panties of the RSVR
 
Burning1 said:
I race a GS500. It has traction control, in so much as there is so little engine power that it's pretty much impossible to spin up the rear tire at typical lean angles.
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There are variables to "so little engine power" though. 52 years ago, I got a rude awakening on my 200cc Triumph cub with semi-knobby tires. Had just washed my bike at the (Alaska) Governers mansion, exiting his (down hill grade) steep driveway, and turning a sharp radius 90 degree corner onto the street, that was an up-hill grade in the direction I was going, I didn't do it well enough, on the controls, rear tire spun up, bike spun around, and bike went flat on the street :laughing


That was the first of a long line of dumps as I began riding dirt bikes, and that long line of dumps taught, what finessing bike control was about.
 
louemc said:
The public road user isn't adjusting for squat. The public road user (typically) is just counting on the Map to come up with the assistance to cover the blunders of the doesn't bother to learn how to ride, Rider.
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The typical public road user doesn't have any idea how to control a motorcycle at the limits of traction. They rely on modern chasis, tire, and suspension technology to deliver huge amounts of grip, and then don't typically go anywhere near the limits of traction on public roads. When they make a mistake, there's such a huge traction reserve available that they will probably never notice.

How many people have you heard recommend the latest sport tires to newbie riders, just so that they have an extra margin of error, just in case they make a mistake?

Cheyenne said:
Is that still true in the rain?
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Of course not... But that wasn't really my point. My point was, that there is still a lot of challenge in riding a bike that won't spin up it's tires if the owner gets overly happy on the throttle.


Cheyenne said:
I feel like every time I make a mistake, especially in the wet, it teaches me to not make that mistake again, or at least gets me closer to that.

Does the same effect occur if TC is there? Do you still get enough feedback to tell you that you've stepped over the line, or more importantly, just put your toes on the line?
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I agree completely. I think it's important to provide the rider with feedback when they make a mistake.

Never having ridden a S1000RR, I'm no expert on how the bike behaves when the TC kicks in. Based on what I understand however, there are two ways that the traction control protects the rider.

The first, is preventative traction control. As the rider leans the bike over, the TC computer limits how much power can be applied to the wheels. This is especially noticeable on rain mode. From what I gather, this mode is rather seamless.

The second is corrective traction control. As the tire spins up and slips, the TC computer limits power application to keep the bike under control. From what I gather, this mode is noticeable. There is for sure an indicator on the instrument cluster that indicates that the TC computer kicked in. I also suspect that the slide and spin would be detected by the rider.

ABS is similar. You can usually feel it when the computer takes over.
 
louemc said:
There are variables to "so little engine power" though. 52 years ago, I got a rude awakening on my 200cc Triumph cub with semi-knobby tires.
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Doh!

Keep in mind, that my bike a 2 valve per cylinder, air cooled, twin cam, shim over bucket, hemispherical engine design. The bottom end of the engine is from the 1970s. The top end from the late 80s.

However, my suspension is 2000s technology, and the tires are new for 2010. :teeth
 
99.9% of the time a skilled rider will save it.

Not all riders are skilled.

and that .1% will catch up to many many skilled riders.
 
Burning1 said:
Doh!

Keep in mind, that my bike a 2 valve per cylinder, air cooled, twin cam, shim over bucket, hemispherical engine design. The bottom end of the engine is from the 1970s. The top end from the late 80s.

However, my suspension is 2000s technology, and the tires are new for 2010. :teeth
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Doh yourself (I thought that was spelled with a u, but Homer Simson might use the o) This Traction Control issue has to be looked at in the context of Variables. You have one Variable, Your bike In Your use, and what is desireable within that use, for You.

The rest of the bike world has other ingredients in their World.
 
Cheyenne said:
I feel like every time I make a mistake, especially in the wet, it teaches me to not make that mistake again, or at least gets me closer to that.

Does the same effect occur if TC is there? Do you still get enough feedback to tell you that you've stepped over the line, or more importantly, just put your toes on the line?.
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I'd written a separate post about this after having spent a day in the rain at Laguna. Having now ridden the bike in the dry for a couple of days at Las Vegas, I can tell you more.

As Burning1 mentioned, you can feel the effects of DTC in a couple of ways. If the rear tire spins up, the bike will react the way any bike would, except that DTC will catch the slide and modulate the throttle appropriately. If you're not at a lean angle where the lean angle sensor limits throttle output, the DTC light on the dash will fire at the onset of wheelspin and you'll feel it kick in when the bike starts to get out of shape. That's not predictive, but I'm finding that if a rider can safely experience little slides without having to worry about getting highsided, they may flirt with that limit a little more often and become familiar with the sensations that immediately precede DTC kicking in.

WRT the lean angle sensor, it can be used in interesting ways to let a rider know what he's doing incorrectly before he slides. I had a couple of students in Vegas who were going fast by late in the day, but they were starting to miss their marks at the turn entry. They tended to turn early and put themselves on a line that tightened up at the exit. As many riders do, they tightened their line without pausing on the throttle as they did so and were at risk of a sudden slide because they were increasing the demand on traction in two ways simultaneously.

I asked them to place the DTC into rain mode. At 38 degrees, rain mode really softens the throttle and you can feel the effect easily. In this mode, if the throttle behaved normally but then went soft in the last third of the corner, they would know they had added lean angle late in the turn. It gave them the opportunity to discover this in real time, without having to have a moment (or worse). Within a couple of laps, both of them cleaned up their turn entries and reestablished the correct relationship between lean angle and throttle control.

As I've said before, I expected DTC to be more of a crutch than a training aid and have been pleasantly surprised to see the ways in which it can help people learn to ride better.

A shot from Vegas:

27008_422049896832_673206832_4991178_6751189_n.jpg
 
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reidconti said:
99.9% of the time a skilled rider will save it.

Not all riders are skilled.

and that .1% will catch up to many many skilled riders.
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How many riders do you know that have highsided on the street because they spun up the rear? 25 years of street riding and I can count zero. And almost 15 years of track day riding, I only saw a handful of highs sides on the track and all were either racers riding at the limit or oil on the track. I just haven't seen this big problem among the general motorcycling public in need of this solution. Not saying TC wouldn't be great to have on a bike; just saying it's not a huge need right now and I wouldn't pay anything extra for it on my bike. I guess for some street riders who can't control their right hand, it's a good thing and will save them $ in the long run.
 
Archimedes said:
How many riders do you know that have highsided on the street because they spun up the rear? 25 years of street riding and I can count zero. And almost 15 years of track day riding, I only saw a handful of highs sides on the track and all were either racers riding at the limit or oil on the track. I just haven't seen this big problem among the general motorcycling public in need of this solution. Not saying TC wouldn't be great to have on a bike; just saying it's not a huge need right now and I wouldn't pay anything extra for it on my bike. I guess for some street riders who can't control their right hand, it's a good thing and will save them $ in the long run.
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A highside isn't the only possible result of spinning up the rear. Many, many lowsides are caused by this as well. About 40% of the crashes we see at the Superbike School are caused by adding lean angle and throttle simultaneously. The error isn't unique to that environment.

We're not too many schools into the year yet, but the early signs are very encouraging.

Anyway, not everyone will want it. I would have felt the same way until I'd tried it for myself. The option is cheap in comparison to tossing a bike away and about the only thing that might keep me from choosing the option now would be some kind of pride. My attitude on rider aids used to be so opposite of what I'm saying now it isn't funny.
 
I crashed last year in drizzle at Infineon from sliding the rear tire under power while leaning into a turn.

Maybe the S1000RR would have prevented that. Seeing as I will not be a professional test rider or anything like that I hardly think the cost of my crash was worth what I learned.

Of course, my bike costs 1/7 what an S1000RR would, which definitely factors in. I'd feel real antsy riding around a 15k bike.
 
Thanks for taking the time to write something up, Andy. You are one of the few folks who's opnions I really trust when reading the about the orgasamatron, aka S1000R.
 
tzrider said:
A highside isn't the only possible result of spinning up the rear. Many, many lowsides are caused by this as well. About 40% of the crashes we see at the Superbike School are caused by adding lean angle and throttle simultaneously. The error isn't unique to that environment.
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No offense, but anyone that is lowsiding a modern sportbike on modern rubber in the dry due to losing rear traction on throttle doesn't fucking know how to ride a motorcycle and really should look somewhere other than TC for help. Christ, you can turn A group lap times on any of the tracks around here without ever spinning up your rear tire. Unless you are a racer riding on the limit or like to sportbike in the rain alot or you really don't know how to ride and need a crutch to save you from your own stupidity (not you, I know you can ride), TC is nothing more than bling blang. For most of us who don't race, don't commute in the rain, and aren't sliding the rear around, it's a waste of $$.

99% of the single moto crashes I've seen on road and track have been caused by either losing the front end under braking or the newbie/squidly rear brake induced lowside.

Now if my desire was for a literbike that I could take to the track and get way more aggressive with the throttle without as much worry, then I think it's a wise investment.
 
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