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Slow riding practice tips?

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YOU GOT IT. Aside from the really basic crap like the location of your clutch, throttle, brakes, shifter, and mirrors, the concept of looking through a turn and whatnot, the two really do NOT have much in common.

A motorcycle behaves, responds, and steers very differently at different given speeds. A motorcycle traveling 65mph is a completely different animal than one traveling 15mph. The stabilizing gyroscopic forces generated by the spinning wheels are incredibly powerful. It's a vastly different machine.
Shouldn't riders be as skilled going slow as they think they are going fast? If safety matters, the median pre-crash speed is 30 mph and the median crash speed is 20 mph. I think that means half are above and half are below. Everybody agrees those are speeds where PLP is relevent. My reason for hammering on practice is just pride. I want to be skilled on the bike, not just good enough to pass a test.

The reason I think slow speed work improves higher speeds is because most of the skills differences between riders is about the abilities to manage lean and feel traction changes. I'm sure high speed feels different than lower speeds and I'm sure the only way to learn about going fast is to go fast but improving lean and traction skills in any kind of practice will influence them across the board--I believe.

As far as gyroscopic effects, I think it influences the front wheel to turn in the direction the bike is leaning but isn't powerful enough to influence stability. This book, linked earlier has become my dynamics reference. http://www.scribd.com/doc/37380689/Motorcycle-Handling-and-Chassis-Design
 
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But as I've said before, there's whole new crops of Newbies that could potentially read the crap he's been putting out there, and get hurt.

You know what? I was wrong. He's still spewing nonsense.

The reason I think slow speed work improves higher speeds is because most of the skills differences between riders is about the abilities to manage lean and feel traction changes.

Dude, you really have no idea what the key differences are between riders. If you want to couch the above as your opinion, fine, but as stated, one would think this is an accepted fact. It's not.
 
Despite your shitty reply to SilverSvs I'm still willing to try. He gave you everything you should be working on and why. Then you shit on him. That was totally uncool. He delivered exactly what you need, rather than what you asked for...

Sometimes my rationales seem right.
I know nothing about your real world.
If I did it wouldn't be my place to advise you what you should do.
This. Stop giving advice outside your experience.
When it "seems" right to you, but is in fact wrong, is where the problem lay.

How about intuitively obvious?
Only if you want abuse. It's a guess, and often wrong.

That is all I have to say about your communication skills. If you want specific techniques to practice being understood send a PM.

Back to topic...
For me low speed drills are very useful, I do it to hone specific skills not just because it's fun. I can't think of a specific exercise that would be helpful to you without a skill development goal attached.

For example; "Hey barfers, I am crashing when I try to quick stop on gravel below 30mph. What do you suggest to help me get better?"

Then there would be several posts mocking me and a couple helpful ones. That's just how BARF rolls. :twofinger
 
My definition of crash vs drop. I've dropped the bike dozens of times, I've never crashed. After a drop the rider picks the bike up and rides it home. A crash is when the rider, or the bike, or both need assistance leaving the scene.
Despite your s...y reply to SilverSvs
Please point out this specific reply you are referring to.
Stop giving advice outside your experience. Then it "seems" right to you, but is in fact wrong, is where the problem lay.
I have opinions, not advice. Maybe we have different opinions but we'll never know if you aren't more specific.
Back to topic...For me low speed drills are very useful, I do it to hone specific skills not just because it's fun. I can't think of a specific exercise that would be helpful to you without a skill development goal attached.
You don't need to think of anything for me, thanks though. What exercises are you doing recently? I made a list of mine, posted earlier.
 
(snip)...the median pre-crash speed is 30 mph and the median crash speed is 20 mph. I think that means half are above and half are below. Everybody agrees those are speeds where PLP is relevent. My reason for hammering on practice is just pride. I want to be skilled on the bike, not just good enough to pass a test.[/URL]

First of all, I'm going to take a wild guess and assume you got this information from the Hurt report. Dude, the Hurt report is OLD NEWS! I'm going to pull a Beginner and pull a number out of my tookus now: When the Hurt Report came out the average motorcycle had 60 horsepower. 30 MPH right before the crash? A modern 600cc sport bike will do nearly three times that in FIRST GEAR!

Secondly, you're not going anywhere near 30 MPH in your 'PLP' exercises. That means that your reasoning is null.
 
I'm going to pull a Beginner and pull a number out of my tookus now


I had to look up tookus::laughing

tookus:
(Noun) Yiddish for butt.
Usage: This job is a pain in the tookus.

(Adjective) Yiddish for derriere.
Usage: The individual is a pain in the tookus. (Phonetic spelling).

(Noun) butt or rear end. Something my Daddy gave to me!
Usage: I fell on my tookus at soccer practice today and it really hurt!


If you practice figure 8's in a parking lot, there is a higher risk in bruising your tookus :teeth
 
My definition of crash vs drop. I've dropped the bike dozens of times, I've never crashed. After a drop the rider picks the bike up and rides it home. A crash is when the rider, or the bike, or both need assistance leaving the scene.

Years ago, a friend and I were riding at a brisk pace down Pomerado Rd in San Diego. He went down in some oil. He tore up his jeans like tissue paper, and had roadrash from his calf to the top of his asscheek. He picked up his SOHC 750, and rode it home for some iodine.

Now Beginner. For Sixtyfour thousand dollars... Was that a drop, or a crash?
 
Years ago, a friend and I were riding at a brisk pace down Pomerado Rd in San Diego. He went down in some oil. He tore up his jeans like tissue paper, and had roadrash from his calf to the top of his asscheek. He picked up his SOHC 750, and rode it home for some iodine.

Now Beginner. For Sixtyfour thousand dollars... Was that a drop, or a crash?

I would say crash but I just found out my perception of a crash and a drop is seriously flawed...
 
It's like the nerdy kid in school that keeps trying to hang w/ the cool kids.

Says the guy with IpwnNoobs under his avatar and kills fake zombies on a video game for 10+ hours at a time!!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHA

:rofl



This poor kid is lonely and wants attention. He learned how to get it, his desire is being fed. Sounds like a success to me.:thumbup I was blunt with him once in PMs, after he accused me of being a rep for MSF, now I wish I hadn't have been so honest. Let the kid be, you wont be able to teach him. He needs to believe he's right and nothing anyone can say or do will convince him he's not.
 
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Please point out this specific reply you are referring to.
DUDE. SERIOUSLY. YOU ARE BEING WILLFULLY IGNORANT. YOU COULD FIND A FOOTNOTE IN A 30-YEAR-OLD REPORT THAT YOU THINK SUPPORTS A DELUSIONAL THEORY OF YOURS BUT YOU CAN'T FIND A POST BY A MOTORCOP IN YOUR OWN MOTORCOP-SKILLS-WORSHIPPING THREAD.

HERE.
However, riding at speed, cornering at speed, and braking from speed can't be learned in cone practice.
...
When I first started riding the police motor and competing I was pretty good. Not the fastest but good enough to compete. Wanna know when I turned the corner and became very competitive and started winning stuff? After taking a course from Rich Oliver at his Mystery School. Two days of sliding around Rich's tracks on a little Yamaha 125 chasing my buddies and getting comfortable climbing all over that bike to gain speed, somehow correlated to me vastly improving my cone work. So much so that I bought a couple 125s and built my own track in my backyard to continue to go sliding and racing my buddies.

While I routinely encourage riders to practice their low speed skills, riders must also gain confidence at speed to be well rounded, successful, and safe riders.
Thanks for biting. How about learn to go slow by practicing slow, then learn to go fast by practicing fast? Is it realistic for a rider to think he's competent at 70 mph if he can't do a routine Uturn without paddling his way around?
Then you tried to cover up your great embarrassment of eating it in front of Johnny Law by redefining nomenclature:
My definition of crash vs drop. I've dropped the bike dozens of times, I've never crashed. After a drop the rider picks the bike up and rides it home. A crash is when the rider, or the bike, or both need assistance leaving the scene.
That's sketchy craigslist-ad-caliber terminology right there.
I have opinions, not advice.
Then maybe you'd better change out your butthurt TOS-quote signature and put that there instead, then. In fact, I guarantee you that 50% of people will be 50% or more easier on you if you change it to "Please accept my sincere apologies for the above post. I have a learning and communication disorder that causes me to think my own random, illogical thoughts are gospel, and any advice that riders with more experience than I could ever hope to achieve must be totally backwards."

:x
 
DUDE. SERIOUSLY. YOU ARE BEING WILLFULLY IGNORANT. YOU COULD FIND A FOOTNOTE IN A 30-YEAR-OLD REPORT THAT YOU THINK SUPPORTS A DELUSIONAL THEORY OF YOURS BUT YOU CAN'T FIND A POST BY A MOTORCOP IN YOUR OWN MOTORCOP-SKILLS-WORSHIPPING THREAD.

HERE.


Then you tried to cover up your great embarrassment of eating it in front of Johnny Law by redefining nomenclature:

That's sketchy craigslist-ad-caliber terminology right there.

Then maybe you'd better change out your butthurt TOS-quote signature and put that there instead, then. In fact, I guarantee you that 50% of people will be 50% or more easier on you if you change it to "Please accept my sincere apologies for the above post. I have a learning and communication disorder that causes me to think my own random, illogical thoughts are gospel, and any advice that riders with more experience than I could ever hope to achieve must be totally backwards."

:x

:applause
 
My definition of crash vs drop. I've dropped the bike dozens of times, I've never crashed. After a drop the rider picks the bike up and rides it home. A crash is when the rider, or the bike, or both need assistance leaving the scene.Please point out this specific reply you are referring to.I have opinions, not advice. Maybe we have different opinions but we'll never know if you aren't more specific.You don't need to think of anything for me, thanks though. What exercises are you doing recently? I made a list of mine, posted earlier.

By my definitions of "drop" and "crash", you've had soooooo many crashes in the parking lot that my advice to you is to stick to riding around the farm. I think it's actually safer...
bike not moving = drop
bike moving = crash

Says the guy with IpwnNoobs under his avatar and kills fake zombies on a video game for 10+ hours at a time!!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHA

:rofl

This poor kid is lonely and wants attention. He learned how to get it, his desire is being fed. Sounds like a success to me.:thumbup I was blunt with him once in PMs, after he accused me of being a rep for MSF, now I wish I hadn't have been so honest. Let the kid be, you wont be able to teach him. He needs to believe he's right and nothing anyone can say or do will convince him he's not.

Wonder if your opinion would change if you knew you were off by literally decades.

DUDE. SERIOUSLY. YOU ARE BEING WILLFULLY IGNORANT. YOU COULD FIND A FOOTNOTE IN A 30-YEAR-OLD REPORT THAT YOU THINK SUPPORTS A DELUSIONAL THEORY OF YOURS BUT YOU CAN'T FIND A POST BY A MOTORCOP IN YOUR OWN MOTORCOP-SKILLS-WORSHIPPING THREAD.

HERE.


Then you tried to cover up your great embarrassment of eating it in front of Johnny Law by redefining nomenclature:

That's sketchy craigslist-ad-caliber terminology right there.


Then maybe you'd better change out your butthurt TOS-quote signature and put that there instead, then. In fact, I guarantee you that 50% of people will be 50% or more easier on you if you change it to "Please accept my sincere apologies for the above post. I have a learning and communication disorder that causes me to think my own random, illogical thoughts are gospel, and any advice that riders with more experience than I could ever hope to achieve must be totally backwards."

:x

I gotta remember that one... :laughing
 
Shouldn't riders be as skilled going slow as they think they are going fast?
I'm not quite sure what you mean. Riders should be skilled at ALL of the speeds they need to use, period. And you cannot become skilled at higher speeds without practicing at higher speeds.
The reason I think slow speed work improves higher speeds is because most of the skills differences between riders is about the abilities to manage lean and feel traction changes. I'm sure high speed feels different than lower speeds and I'm sure the only way to learn about going fast is to go fast but improving lean and traction skills in any kind of practice will influence them across the board--I believe.
Managing lean at higher speeds is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than managing lean at low speeds. At speed, the bike wants desperately to self-correct, stand up and go straight, and you have to apply real effort to countersteer and hold the bike down in a turn. At speed, the sensation of losing traction is different, happens at different times and in different ways, and recovering from a loss of traction works totally differently as well. I cannot emphasize this enough--it is very important.
As far as gyroscopic effects, I think it influences the front wheel to turn in the direction the bike is leaning but isn't powerful enough to influence stability.
No, that's not it, at all.

A bike under power, traveling fast, is VERY stable. Very, very stable. If you've ever played with a gyroscope, or a bicycle wheel, or some other spinning thing, you have probably noticed that it resists being moved. It doesn't want to rotate away from its current position, and the faster it's spinning, the harder it resists. Motorcycle wheels are large and heavy, and gyroscopic forces they generate are very powerful. Actually, if you just had 1 single motorcycle wheel on some kind of armature just spinning all on its own at 60mph, and you walked up to it and tried to turn it with just the strength of your own arms... I bet it would probably take quite a bit to wrestle with the thing. The geometry of the bike is really pretty sophisticated, and is designed to help us by doing a lot for us. The wheels interact with the rake of the front forks in such a way that the bike self-corrects-- when the front wheel is turned, it wants to straighten out again, and that self-correction force increases in strength the faster you are going. The steeper the rake, such as on a dirt bike, the weaker that self-correction force is and the less stable (and more nimble) the bike-- whereas a stretched out cruiser with its front wheel sticking wayyyy out to the front is harder to turn. The more power is being fed to the rear wheel, the more stable the bike is-- if you have ever gone down a steep hill, you may have noticed how much less stable the bike feels than it is when you're traveling uphill under power. I'm no expert on the complex physics there, this is just the overview from what I can grasp.

You could do a circus act on top of a bike that's traveling at highway speeds. You can throw your weight around any which way you please. It won't budge. Without countersteering inputs it will only laugh at you and continue traveling in a straight line with great determination. Left to its own devices, with nobody touching the handlebars and the throttle open, a bike traveling at sufficient speed can continue in a straight line indefinitely all on its own. My photography teacher hit a huge pothole on the freeway once, so hard that it bent both of his rims and blew both of his tires-- but the bike kept trucking in a straight line, and he did not go down.

A bike traveling at speed is a totally different machine. It behaves differently. It steers differently. It responds differently. Not just subtly different, but TOTALLY different. You cannot practice that without doing it, that's like trying to fly a plane on the ground.
 
I came up with a system I think will help everyone. God willing, it will help you see what you're posting, beginner.
  • A question, valid point, or something clearly stated as ignorant opinion ok - green
  • Encroaching on unfounded or illogical points, or using "I think" or "I guess" to validate said points better swerve back to safety! - yellow
  • Pompous-sounding, expert-rebuking, batshit-crazy claim stated as fact panic stop now and emergency u-turn! - red
Let's try it out! [With editors marks]
Shouldn't riders be as skilled going slow as they think they are going fast? If safety matters, the median pre-crash speed is 30 mph and the median crash speed is 20 mph. I think that means half are above and half are below. Everybody agrees those are speeds where PLP is relevent. My reason for hammering on practice is just pride. I want to be skilled on the bike, not just good enough to pass a test. [Good for you]

The reason I think slow speed work improves higher speeds is because most of the skills differences between riders is about the abilities to manage lean and feel traction changes. I'm sure high speed feels different than lower speeds and I'm sure the only way to learn about going fast is to go fast but improving lean and traction skills in any kind of practice will influence them across the board--I believe.

As far as gyroscopic effects, I think it influences the front wheel to turn in the direction the bike is leaning but isn't powerful enough to influence stability. This book, linked earlier has become my dynamics reference. http://www.scribd.com/doc/37380689/Motorcycle-Handling-and-Chassis-Design
Bravo, it looks like you're improving already by including all those conditional statements. That's what made a lot of them green and not yellow or red. Do we dare try this on another recent post?
Practice is no chore it's fun. The riders who don't like that idea howl in protest as though there was some religious dogma issue.

Silversys' group has great rides because they also practice together. They probably wouldn't welcome anyone who wasn't part of that preparation.
So may be put a group together, practice together and see if practiced groups are more fun on the road.
Wow! Do you see how brash and presumptive you were? People don't like that! And if you do it, people won't like you! :wow

If you'd like to see how some of your other posts stack up, feel free to quote them here and I'll run 'em through the system!

I offer the users of BARF an unlimited, royalty-free license to use the above system for any past or future post.
 
A bike traveling at speed is a totally different machine. It behaves differently. It steers differently. It responds differently. Not just subtly different, but TOTALLY different. You cannot practice that without doing it, that's like trying to fly a plane on the ground.
This woman. Listen to her.
 
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