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So, Dave Ramsey....on car buying....

Yes, and he's saying it's not acceptable to be that poor in the US. Not everyone can fix that, but most can if they only will.



Yeah OK. The point is that big purchases should be investments. If you spend a lot of money on a car you will lose a lot of money. That's how people stay poor.

I agree to a point, but I did share a touching story about my clients and a Harley she purchased for him on his birthday. Not an investment, but a big purchased for them. They struggled during the height of COVID, but the bike remained.

I win incentive trips through my company for my production. One year they sent us to Ireland/Scotland- all expenses paid and top notch everything. Had dinner at the Scotland National Museum. It was spectacular. They don’t, however, pay for children.

We spent a shit load of money to bring him. We charged half of it on a credit card. Even as a top producer for my company, we still needed to charge some of it at that time in our financial lives. I guess I could’ve taken that money and dropped it in some stock, heck, even a CD... but the memories we got out of it far outweigh any investment.

In my years of financial advice, a lot of advisors miss the boat on one thing, as well as armchair advisors (the old men at the coffee shop “advisors”) - the human component. Like I said, I’ve met a lot of investors and savers who were friggin miserable, constantly staring at the NASDAQ and just sucking at life. Buying cheap shit to save a dollar. These people have their faces stuck in spreadsheets while they haven’t taken their wife out to dinner in 20 years.

I shop at Walmart, and I do buy 2nd hand clothes (it’s actually kinda fun) to save a little, but I am not going to sacrifice my family’s memories just to be “frugal” and cheap.

My car payment is $600 a month and I gladly spend it as the weekends of pulling our boat ($300 payment) to the lake and fishing are priceless. The boy is only 12 once in his life.

My motorcycle? The thing that I only enjoy? It was $1,900. You see, I don’t understand the people that spend $10k on a motorcycle. I can afford it, but I simply don’t. It would be a selfish purchase that only I would relish in, and not my family.
 
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I wonder where he stands on the $10k Tempurpedic mattress I just bought. I’m sure a $300 slab o’ springs and foam from IKEA would be the Dave Ramsey way.

Hey at least I got 0% for 60.

Wow, I hope that it passes the pea test, wouldn't want to try the pee test on it though!
 
Yes, and he's saying it's not acceptable to be that poor in the US. Not everyone can fix that, but most can if they only will.



Yeah OK. The point is that big purchases should be investments. If you spend a lot of money on a car you will lose a lot of money. That's how people stay poor.

Exactly. He is saying, 'it's your fault you are poor, if you only followed these (rules that are not possible to follow for more than half of the country), you could grow your wealth.' Meanwhile, he shows disdain for programs designed to help regular people, even during a pandemic. (link). I've been in the low income bucket before. After bills and other unavoidable costs it was impossible to actually save any meaningful amount of money. At that time, thanks mostly to my family, not me, I had no debts, no student loans despite a good college education, no car payment, nothing like that, and it was still basically impossible to save any money. There are always going to be people in the same situation I was in or worse. In our current system it's literally impossible for everyone or even most people to have a good paying job. Given that, I have no respect at all for some jackass born with a silver spoon in his mouth telling poor people that they are to blame for their situation, and if they just bootstrapped a little bit harder they would be wealthy too.
 
Exactly. He is saying, 'it's your fault you are poor, if you only followed these (rules that are not possible to follow for more than half of the country), you could grow your wealth.' Meanwhile, he shows disdain for programs designed to help regular people, even during a pandemic. (link). I've been in the low income bucket before. After bills and other unavoidable costs it was impossible to actually save any meaningful amount of money. At that time, thanks mostly to my family, not me, I had no debts, no student loans despite a good college education, no car payment, nothing like that, and it was still basically impossible to save any money. There are always going to be people in the same situation I was in or worse. In our current system it's literally impossible for everyone or even most people to have a good paying job. Given that, I have no respect at all for some jackass born with a silver spoon in his mouth telling poor people that they are to blame for their situation, and if they just bootstrapped a little bit harder they would be wealthy too.

Stimulus checks are designed to bolster public opinion, and spending, not to improve the situation of the poors. Being in a low income bucket while your family is subsidizing your good education, is probably not equivalent to living paycheck to paycheck with no support network. I don't know, or care, about the dude giving financial advice, but living beyond one's means seems common at all income levels in the U.S.
 
I have never driven any vehicle with a CVT that felt like it was any semblance of anything beyond a soulless appliance.

It's not really a CVT. Toyota calls it a e-CVT, though. I understand what you are saying and the same thing can be applied to BEVs.

I always say for EVs, noise and vibration can always be engineered back in. :nerd:laughing

I was always a fan of the clutches shift.
 
Stimulus checks are designed to bolster public opinion, and spending, not to improve the situation of the poors. Being in a low income bucket while your family is subsidizing your good education, is probably not equivalent to living paycheck to paycheck with no support network. I don't know, or care, about the dude giving financial advice, but living beyond one's means seems common at all income levels in the U.S.

The stimulus checks and the other parts of that bill absolutely do improve the situation of poor people. It literally cut child poverty in half. That's a huge deal.

The point I was getting at is that for many people, 'living beyond one's means' is not a choice that they make. Many people, through no fault of their own, can barely manage to fulfill basic needs for survival, and many can't even do that. This guy seems to just blame people's poverty on their bad financial decisions.

So, maybe his message is meaningful and helps people who make a decent income and are just addicted to spending their money on shit they don't need. However, for many people he just sounds like a rich jackass who has no understanding of the way the modern economy fails the poor and working class, and complete disdain for those people.
 
So, a guy who bankrupted himself because he took on more debt than he can handle ought to be a cautionary tale about debt, not the person giving advice on it. The only reason that his bankruptcy didn't ruin him as it would most other people is because his family has wealth and connections, which isn't something most people can depend on.

His advice is completely unrealistic for the majority of working Americans. 25% net pay on a mortgage. The median individual income is less than 40k, that's not even net pay, but at that rate your mortgage would need to be about $800 a month, before taxes and insurance. That mortgage would be for $170k, meaning even if you can get a generous down payment together the home value is going to be over 100k less than the median home price.

'only buy a car you can buy in cash.' The median amount spent on a new car is just under 40k, so that is obviously impossible. The average cost of a used car in the US is about 20k. That's still basically impossible for the median income earner.

You have obviously never listened to the show. It's frightening how many people make bad financial decisions on all income levels. Our education system is to blame here, we should teach personal finance in high school. Not knowing how making bad credit decisions early in life can set you up for long term failure.

The stimulus checks and the other parts of that bill absolutely do improve the situation of poor people. It literally cut child poverty in half. That's a huge deal.

The point I was getting at is that for many people, 'living beyond one's means' is not a choice that they make. Many people, through no fault of their own, can barely manage to fulfill basic needs for survival, and many can't even do that. This guy seems to just blame people's poverty on their bad financial decisions.

So, maybe his message is meaningful and helps people who make a decent income and are just addicted to spending their money on shit they don't need. However, for many people he just sounds like a rich jackass who has no understanding of the way the modern economy fails the poor and working class, and complete disdain for those people.

Complete conjecture on your part. He helps many people on the show who are poverty level and has great compassion for them, to a point. Again, if you listened to the show you would see how most of humans are wired to spend, spend, spend. Marketing and human nature work, for the corporations, we are wired to spend more, more, more. On the show people call in with $40K salaries and ask how they can afford to pay off credit cards, afford their rent, afford daycare, or electricity. He goes through their expenses, and more often than not there is room to cut and help them breath. You'd be surprised that most of us do have some item we overspent on because we had to have it, a new car, home, boat, credit cards. Dave sniffs those out and helps people see how that is keeping them from affording life, without credit burden. Sometimes it is a matter of fact problem that someone may need another source of income, another job or side hustle.

The point is you shouldn't buy a home or car on credit that you can't afford. If you need to rent a home or even a room, that's A OK. If you need to buy a relatively affordable car on credit, that's OK too, but he just believes most people could make due with a cash car. There are many cars in the $5-10K range that run great. Many on this message board have commuted on motorcycles that cost less. My first bike was $2500 and I rode it rain or shine to work and school. There is also public transit or ride share.

No one "needs" a $40K car or a $750K condo. There are other alternatives if financial freedom is a goal.
 
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All these 'must follow' percentages in spending and saving are based on old school valuations. The cost of living and goods/services have exponentially passed the increase in wages. It's nearly impossible to follow some of them.
 
I wonder how Madoff victims feel about driving a $2K car AND having their investments wiped clean out...
 
You have obviously never listened to the show. It's frightening how many people make bad financial decisions on all income levels. Our education system is to blame here, we should teach personal finance in high school. Not knowing how making bad credit decisions early in life can set you up for long term failure.



Complete conjecture on your part. He helps many people on the show who are poverty level and has great compassion for them, to a point. Again, if you listened to the show you would see how most of humans are wired to spend, spend, spend. Marketing and human nature work, for the corporations, we are wired to spend more, more, more. On the show people call in with $40K salaries and ask how they can afford to pay off credit cards, afford their rent, afford daycare, or electricity. He goes through their expenses, and more often than not there is room to cut and help them breath. You'd be surprised that most of us do have some item we overspent on because we had to have it, a new car, home, boat, credit cards. Dave sniffs those out and helps people see how that is keeping them from affording life, without credit burden. Sometimes it is a matter of fact problem that someone may need another source of income, another job or side hustle.

The point is you shouldn't buy a home or car on credit that you can't afford. If you need to rent a home or even a room, that's A OK. If you need to buy a relatively affordable car on credit, that's OK too, but he just believes most people could make due with a cash car. There are many cars in the $5-10K range that run great. Many on this message board have commuted on motorcycles that cost less. My first bike was $2500 and I rode it rain or shine to work and school. There is also public transit or ride share.

No one "needs" a $40K car or a $750K condo. There are other alternatives if financial freedom is a goal.


My High School did teach personal finance, actually. Though it's possible that my school was more the exception, not the rule.

Anyway, Dave Ramsey's teachings, per his website:

- Save $1000 as fast as you can. Having a rainy day fund is not exactly a novel concept. This isn't bad advice, but it's not exactly unique. It's also something that varies wildly in how difficult it can be based on someone's income. Someone making under 30k a year may never be able to even get to the next thing no matter how hard they try. Just advocating that people should get 2, 3, 4 jobs (which you said he does) is a reductive way to blame poor people for systemic problems in our economy

- Pay Off All Debt (Except the House) Using the Debt Snowball.
So, his (not actually his idea) debt snowball method is at best debated by personal finance experts. Paying off the smallest debt first doesn't really make sense if the smaller debts are stable and low interest, while you have a larger debt that is very high interest. Also, the implicit assumption that most people can afford a mortgage on a house, 35% of the population rents. That does give a hint about the target market here.

- Save 3–6 Months of Expenses in a Fully Funded Emergency Fund
See the first comment again, but additionally, depending on what 3-6 months of expenses looks like, this could mean 10-20k or even more sitting in simple savings instead of investing it. Most families can't or at least shouldn't, horde that much money without at least putting most of it in a safe investment portfolio.

- Invest 15% of Your Household Income in Retirement
This is again very basic advice, though honestly I think 15% is low.

- Save for Your Children’s College Fund
Again, very basic advice. Though, presuming people will have children. One problem you get by ignoring societal economic trends is ignoring that the rate of people getting married and having children is going down pretty rapidly. Likely because both can be very expensive and people are trying to live within their means.

- Pay Off Your Home Early
This is dumb advice. It feels good to pay off the home, sure, and I 100% think people should refinance to a mortgage that gives them the lowest interest rate possible, which generally are also shorter term (15 year rates can be 2% lower in interest than 30 year rates), however, especially if you have an interest rate that is around or below inflation, You would be better off financially to keep the mortgage and invest the funds you would otherwise use to pay it off for long term growth.

Other issues, he seems to be of the mindset that if you can't pay for your education in cash, you just shouldn't go to college. Even acknowledging that student loans are predatory, college is still by far one of the best ways to guarantee financial comfort in life.

So, even ignoring the fact that thanks purely to his families wealth and connections, Dave Ramsey never really faced financial hardship in his life, even when he went bankrupt due to his own bad decisions with real estate. Ignoring the fact that he fires people for having premarital sex. Ignoring that he spent the last year downplaying or denying COVID. Ignoring that he acted contemptuous towards people who were helped by the stimulus payments. Ignoring all of that, his advice is still very reductive, basic, and sometimes actually bad for people.

IMO, the first expense people should cut out of their budgets to free themselves of debt is the $40 he charges to go to one of his dumb events, or the $130 he charges for his fake university course tape, or however much people spend on his books.
 
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Let's say all I can afford is a $2k clunker with issues. Oh fuck, trans all fucked up because I'm too poor to maintain it properly. Will cost $1k to fix. Well shit, now this $2k car has cost me $3k. Maybe I should have purchased a $3k car with less issues. Oh no! $3k car now has a blown motor because, again, I'm too poor to properly maintain it. I gots bills to pay and five kids to feed!

At what point should I use that $2k or $3k with my shit credit to go buy a better car to make weekly $100 payments at a local Credit Cars lot where if I miss a payment by a day, they repo my shit?!

Oh, Dave Ramsey. How do I ever get out of this suck hole?! I guess live like a pauper for 40-50 years then enjoy life with only what, 10, MAYBE 20 more years? Fuck that. I'll live within my means now, enjoy life and keep saving for retirement.

Remember no one cares if you die the richest person in the cemetery.

Sorry, Dave. Everyone in the US needs a car. You would have a heart attack at my payments, but then I make a very nice income and consider it stupid to pay cash for a car at today's low finance rates when I can continue to invest my $$$ in a stock market that has yielded an average of 8% for over 100 years.
I can't drive the clunker that you recommend, because I use my car for a fairly long commute, and also drive for business. I simply can't afford a breakdown that inconveniences a lot of people. I also spend a lot of time in vehicles and I want a decent suspension, radio, climate control etc that comes with comfort. Oh yeah. I like to take vacations in my car as well. Clunkers usually don't work too well for that. Oh yeah. I also have a cabin that is 278 miles away from my job. I don't really want to be stuck with a clunker stranded in the middle of BF waiting for a tow.
My wife, who knows nothing about anything mechanical, cannot be stranded on the side of any road in the Bay Area or anywhere else for that matter. It's just too dangerous. She needs a reliable vehicle. So no clunker for her.

Bottom line. Dave does OK when he recommends no debt and prudent living. But his audience is mostly Joe Sixpack wage earner types who get into trouble with overspending on the cool pickup and new boat. Business people and landlords who wisely use debt as a tool, are out of his league when it comes to his advice.
 
"No one "needs" a $40K car or a $750K condo. There are other alternatives if financial freedom is a goal."

Unless you want to be homeless, it's hard to see avoiding this in the Bay Area.:(
 
"No one "needs" a $40K car or a $750K condo. There are other alternatives if financial freedom is a goal."

Unless you want to be homeless, it's hard to see avoiding this in the Bay Area.:(

That is just silly. You have to try really hard to buy a used car for $40k.

New cars are for suckers. I did it once, never again.
 
That is just silly. You have to try really hard to buy a used car for $40k.

New cars are for suckers. I did it once, never again.


As long as one can take the cash hit.

Seriously though, new luxo cars, let the suckers take the depreciation hit. Come in later for one that's 2 years old, CPO if possible, and be a baller on a budget.
 
I don't have good "luck" buying used cars

So I buy new and keep em for ~20 years

Only took a loan on the first. Kept making that monthly payment to myself once that loan expired
 
You have obviously never listened to the show. It's frightening how many people make bad financial decisions on all income levels. Our education system is to blame here, we should teach personal finance in high school. Not knowing how making bad credit decisions early in life can set you up for long term failure.



Complete conjecture on your part. He helps many people on the show who are poverty level and has great compassion for them, to a point. Again, if you listened to the show you would see how most of humans are wired to spend, spend, spend. Marketing and human nature work, for the corporations, we are wired to spend more, more, more. On the show people call in with $40K salaries and ask how they can afford to pay off credit cards, afford their rent, afford daycare, or electricity. He goes through their expenses, and more often than not there is room to cut and help them breath. You'd be surprised that most of us do have some item we overspent on because we had to have it, a new car, home, boat, credit cards. Dave sniffs those out and helps people see how that is keeping them from affording life, without credit burden. Sometimes it is a matter of fact problem that someone may need another source of income, another job or side hustle.

The point is you shouldn't buy a home or car on credit that you can't afford. If you need to rent a home or even a room, that's A OK. If you need to buy a relatively affordable car on credit, that's OK too, but he just believes most people could make due with a cash car. There are many cars in the $5-10K range that run great. Many on this message board have commuted on motorcycles that cost less. My first bike was $2500 and I rode it rain or shine to work and school. There is also public transit or ride share.

No one "needs" a $40K car or a $750K condo. There are other alternatives if financial freedom is a goal.
I have similar thoughts. Nobody’s advice is for everyone. I’ve listened some and he does help people, I suppose we would need a poll of his listeners and followers to determine if he helps mores than he hinders. I get the impression that most responders don’t need his advice and several speculate about those with less income. The amount of debt, especially credit card, his callers had was astounding and I think that’s where he is helpful. He is saying that just because they’ll loan you the money doesn’t mean you should do it. Wasn’t there a housing crisis on something like that? There’s no shame in failure if you try again. I used to have a favorite mechanic and preferred paying him over the bank.
I’ve managed to live in the Bay Area by living below my meager means.:twofinger
 
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- Pay Off Your Home Early
This is dumb advice. It feels good to pay off the home, sure, and I 100% think people should refinance to a mortgage that gives them the lowest interest rate possible, which generally are also shorter term (15 year rates can be 2% lower in interest than 30 year rates), however, especially if you have an interest rate that is around or below inflation, You would be better off financially to keep the mortgage and invest the funds you would otherwise use to pay it off for long term growth.
I agree with you on this part. Mortgage interest rates are very low, so leveraging that to allow you to take cash flow and invest in interest earning investments is wise, especially over time. However, if you consider Dave's audience this situation may be lost on some. His advice tends to be focused at (unfortunately)typical people that have been living above their means and are looking for a way out. These types of people might never end up using that mortgage savings investing anything. Instead, they end up using any savings on depreciating assets or consumer goods that do nothing for their overall financial health.

You seem to have a certain amount of vitriol towards Dave Ramsey. This is fine. But in your analysis of his "baby steps" strategy points you don't totally disagree with them. If anything, only minor adjustments are needed in your opinion.
 
Sorry, Dave. Everyone in the US needs a car. ].

I would say this is false. Too absolute.

There are small pockets of the US that are OK for living car-free. Also, cities are focusing on leaning away from car-centric design. Better alternatives, walkable streets, design for bikes, transit, density, ect. Ride share and car-share is trending up.

I'm not saying that cars are not convenient, but people finance cars based on consumerism instead of needs.
 
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