The debate about gear rages on

[afm199]

WARNING: GORY PHOTO OF MY FOOT AFTER A CRASH!!!

I pay my own medical insurance, and always have. So to anyone who says I am responsible for money out of your pockets you can go shove it. I've paid in to that system more than it has paid me. Plus, insurance is a legal requirement if you ride, the decision to ride is not mandated anywhere. Therefore, you choose to have insurance. Anyone like me who pays for their own insurance is not the same as an uninsured person's medical bills.

sorry about your crash bud. that sucks. However the fact that you "paid more into the system than" does not change the fact that the cost passes to all of us. Out of your $1000 to the system, probably half actually pays for medical expenses. You're not paying for care.....They don't save up your money and allocate it out if you need it. It goes into a pool. It's insurance. It doesn't work that way. If you'd cracked your noggin and ended up three weeks of critical care at the cost of $800k ( Happens all the time) would you still be saying you paid your "share"?


And when you crash again in your jeans and tshirt, we'll be paying more of your expenses.

 

[Marcoose]

I missed the conclusion that wearing protective gear stops you from going down - who said that? That's ludicrous

If you're too cold, too wet, too hot, too invisible, too miserable, you're chances of going down goes up. It's about the right gear for the right ride. And there's a minimum gear for every ride. If you can find the right gear for a particular ride, read a good book, tend your garden, polish your CV. There's always something else in life.

 

[ALANRIDER7]

My foot had been smashed between the bike and the pavement, and I had been wearing flip-flops.

How would you have fared if you had worn boots?

 

[afm199]

How would you have fared if you had worn boots?

Shhh don't bring up these uncomfortable facts. Dude somehow believes that gear is not going to make any difference.

 

[Breaking Daniel]

sorry about your crash bud. that sucks. However the fact that you "paid more into the system than" does not change the fact that the cost passes to all of us. Out of your $1000 to the system, probably half actually pays for medical expenses. You're not paying for care.....They don't save up your money and allocate it out if you need it. It goes into a pool. It's insurance. It doesn't work that way. If you'd cracked your noggin and ended up three weeks of critical care at the cost of $800k ( Happens all the time) would you still be saying you paid your "share"?


And when you crash again in your jeans and tshirt, we'll be paying more of your expenses.

Though I expect and want no sympathy from anyone, I do appreciate your concern. That kind of human kindness is genuine and rare, and you displayed it even though you and I have a difference of opinion.

With that said, I think I said it somewhere else in this thread, it's your choice to ride a motorcycle. Just like we all assume a higher risk of injury/death when we make the life decision to straddle these machines, we also assume additional incurred costs of other peoples mistakes and unfortunate mishaps. You may pay a slightly higher insurance rate on your [insert motorcycle you ride here] simply because other riders with the same type of bike tend to crash a lot, but it's your choice to ride. Just like (regardless of the amount of gear you wear or how you ride) motorcycle riding is inherently dangerous, it also comes with inherent financial costs. If you don't like it, then with all due respect, get the heck off your bike and start walking/driving/public transit etc...but please, please, please stop trying to take away a mans right to decide what he wears while riding. I presume neck injuries kill/injure more people in car accidents every year then all motorcycle related injuries combined. Why don't you lobby for head protection and neck restraints in cars?

PS. If anyone has any stats regarding total number of motorcycle injuries+deaths per population compared to the total number of head/neck injuries+deaths per population that would be great to see. I'm curious if my presumption is right or wrong.

 

[Breaking Daniel]

How would you have fared if you had worn boots?

Better than I did, that's for sure.

But riding my scooter with boots on would have done nothing to prevent my crash you moron. My decision to do something stupid on a motorcycle is why I crashed, NOT MY FOOTWEAR.

Shhh don't bring up these uncomfortable facts. Dude somehow believes that gear is not going to make any difference.

Read my previous posts, including the one with my pictures.

I clearly am an individual who has stated many times over that gear reduces injury, but does not prevent the crash. For Christ sake, read the original post on page one! Better yet, see below for a copy/paste of my original thread post.

"Gear serves only the purpose of injury prevention, but does not make someone less likely to crash."

Sounds a lot like I said gear prevents injury doesn't it?

 

[redtail]

"Gear serves only the purpose of injury prevention, but does not make someone less likely to crash."

Just "curious" since you hold to this notion, do you have statistics support your statement? Or could this be another "I'm curious if my presumption is right or wrong."

 

[ALANRIDER7]

"Gear serves only the purpose of injury prevention, but does not make someone less likely to crash."

What if you're wrong?

 

[FXCLM5]

well remember this

"gear will save your hide, it will not save your life"

i remember a few years back, my buddy sold a suit to a fellow rider we frequently meet out on our loops,

next week with the newly purchased suit - rider goes down

gear doesnt make you ride idiotically, YOU are still responsible for what YOU do, not your gear.

now with said rider - buying the newly purchased suit - gives him a newfound superhero thinking he can do things faster/better/harder since he has a "new" layer of added protection - that is where the mentality of the rider is at fault, purchasing a new piece of safety equipment = does not make you invincible, and does not give you a freebie to jump skill levels just because you think you can.

 

[Marcoose]

Shhh don't bring up these uncomfortable facts. Dude somehow believes that gear is not going to make any difference.

Zing!

What if you're wrong?

He is! Further, it perpetuates the BS that choice is better than no choice. Thanks to DOT and Snell standards, it's easy to picture hundreds of Californians alive to tell the tales of their crashes.

 

[Breaking Daniel]

Just "curious" since you hold to this notion, do you have statistics support your statement? Or could this be another "I'm curious if my presumption is right or wrong."

No. Do you?

It's a matter of an educated opinion (presumption). In MY opinion, gear is injury prevention, not crash prevention. But you don't hear anyone that agrees with me demanding everyone who is ATGATT strip there gear off do you? I haven't, and I respect your right to wear gear. On the other hand, you and those who agree with you tend to demand that my 'Murican right to choose to ride a motorcycle in jeans and a tee shirt be taken from me. That's a civil rights issue bud.

Like I've said before, where does it stop? Head restraints in cars? Closed toed shoes for walking to avoid a stubbed toe? Only dull scissors allowed in this country, all sharp object will be legislated illegal and confiscated?

What if you're wrong?

I am smart enough to admit that I may be.

I have a confession that is off topic. I once disagreed with LGBT having equal marriage rights, as I felt that it was a choice to be LGBT that they were making. But then my son was born. And I immediately changed how I felt, as I realized that I may be wrong. What if my son turns out LGBT? I would want him to have the same right to love as anyone else. So there is always the possibility of me being wrong, and I am willing to admit that. Are you?

 

[redtail]

you and those who agree with you tend to demand that my 'Murican right to choose to ride a motorcycle in jeans and a tee shirt be taken from me.

Once again a presumption not based on any facts. I have come out repeatedly and stated that I do not support helmet laws or the like. Just because I advocate wearing the proper gear you again made a leap.

Makes one wonder where else you pull your ideas from?

 

[Breaking Daniel]

Once again a presumption not based on any facts. I have come out repeatedly and stated that I do not support helmet laws or the like. Just because I advocate wearing the proper gear you again made a leap.

Makes one wonder where else you pull your ideas from?

As defined by Merriam Webster;

Assume: "to take as granted or true" <---What I don't do, because it has no basis and is not even an educated guess.

Presume: "to suppose to be true without proof" <---What I do, because if you understood the definition of suppose, you would understand that it is an opinion. My opinion is an educated one based on first-hand experience and knowledge of the topic.

Suppose: "to hold as an opinion"

Now tell me, what first hand experience do you have with crashing? How has it aided you in your decision to support ATGATT? How has it effected your drive to certainty that you are right without acknowledging the fact that you may be wrong?

You sir, assume far to much about me.

 

[redtail]

You sir, assume far to much about me.

Based only on what you wrote, I must assume you meant what you said.

Lets just say I have more experience than you, crashing and otherwise, but since experience is not what (necessarily) sways one's opinions, I don't find a penis measuring contest to be germain to the subject of support/nonsupport of ATGATT.

I do, you don't, I disagree with your assertions (not based on any facts) you hold them as facts. Life goes on...

 

[Marcoose]

...demand that my 'Murican right to choose to ride a motorcycle in jeans and a tee shirt be taken from me. That's a civil rights issue bud.

I'm sure Dr King would unequivocally agree with you. Just in case, here's a quick link for your edification in your spare time:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_rights_movement

Daniel, nobody is born with the right to ride. A person must pass certain (lousy) hurdles to obtain and maintain the privilege to ride.

 

[Marcoose]

My opinion is an educated one based on first-hand experience and knowledge of the topic.

Based on your knowledge of Civil Rights, it's fair to opine your hands-on experience and knowledge of the topic, and for that matter of the effectiveness of proper gear, is equivalent of the opinion of many that say black folks can't swim because their bodies are too heavy to float. Some have even witness black folks drowning with their own eyes.

Opinion is cheap. Empirical statistics never lie.

Personally, I've never heard a crash survivor complaining it had too much gear on. But I don't go around that much. Just 25 years straddling.

 

[Breaking Daniel]

Based only on what you wrote, I must assume you meant what you said.

Lets just say I have more experience than you, crashing and otherwise, but since experience is not what (necessarily) sways one's opinions, I don't find a penis measuring contest to be germain to the subject of support/nonsupport of ATGATT.

I do, you don't, I disagree with your assertions (not based on any facts) you hold them as facts. Life goes on...

Based on your knowledge of Civil Rights, it's fair to opine your hands-on experience and knowledge of the topic, and for that matter of the effectiveness of proper gear, is equivalent of the opinion of many that say black folks can't swim because their bodies are too heavy to float. Some have even witness black folks drowning with their own eyes.

Opinion is cheap. Empirical statistics never lie.

Personally, I've never heard a crash survivor complaining it had too much gear on. But I don't go around that much. Just 25 years straddling.

Black people in swimming pools, and penis measuring contests....



You 2 are so far out in left field, there aren't enough emoticons in the world to convey the amount of laughter coming from me right now.

"Empirical statistic never lie."? You show me one study that says wearing a jacket and leather pants PREVENTS a rider from crashing. CRASHING. Not prevents injury.

 

[redtail]

there aren't enough emoticons in the world.

One will suffice...

You show me one study that says wearing a jacket and leather pants PREVENTS a rider from crashing. CRASHING. Not prevents injury.

Do facts really matter to you???

 

[afm199]

Though I expect and want no sympathy from anyone, I do appreciate your concern. That kind of human kindness is genuine and rare, and you displayed it even though you and I have a difference of opinion.

With that said, I think I said it somewhere else in this thread, it's your choice to ride a motorcycle. Just like we all assume a higher risk of injury/death when we make the life decision to straddle these machines, we also assume additional incurred costs of other peoples mistakes and unfortunate mishaps. You may pay a slightly higher insurance rate on your [insert motorcycle you ride here] simply because other riders with the same type of bike tend to crash a lot, but it's your choice to ride. Just like (regardless of the amount of gear you wear or how you ride) motorcycle riding is inherently dangerous, it also comes with inherent financial costs. If you don't like it, then with all due respect, get the heck off your bike and start walking/driving/public transit etc...but please, please, please stop trying to take away a mans right to decide what he wears while riding. I presume neck injuries kill/injure more people in car accidents every year then all motorcycle related injuries combined. Why don't you lobby for head protection and neck restraints in cars?

PS. If anyone has any stats regarding total number of motorcycle injuries+deaths per population compared to the total number of head/neck injuries+deaths per population that would be great to see. I'm curious if my presumption is right or wrong.

I'm not trying to take away any of your rights and am not lobbying for laws to force riders to wear more gear. You can wear whatever you want. I said, and will say again, that those of us who gear up have fewer injuries and pay disproportionately for insurance due to you. Further, because the incidence of injury is so much higher with out gear, so are the chances increased that the GENERAL public will push for ever more stringent laws to prevent them form paying for more brain-dead motorcyclists who were not wearing helmets. In other words, I am not your enemy. You are. This is posited on your post stating that you wear jeans, a t shirt and shoes. If you wear full gear, this is not aimed at you.

 

[morthrane]

Obviously, we should motorcycles. Its for the children.