The debate about gear rages on

[clutchslip]

Sounds a lot like I said gear prevents injury doesn't it?

Then WHY THE HELL do you keep arguing? Statistically, this was all proven in the very old, first complete, and still maybe the most complete study of motorcycle injuries and fatalities: The Hurt Report.

From a "Fish Called Wanda" - "Are you totally de-ranged?"

 

[louemc]

Just a little extra fuel for the fire.

Not all the gear is on the body... My bike wears gear as well.

The best tires for the type use, and best brakes for the type use, and check everything to know all is well.

 

[angelsndevils]

Super epic troll thread is super.

Gear can prevent crashes, gear cannot prevent all crashes.
Gear can prevent injurys, gear cannot prevent all injurys.

 

[Gixxergirl1000]

So assuming she is over 18 (most likely over 21 if they are going to the club as indicated), how is it the rider's responsibility for what the passenger is wearing? And how is their passengers "poor" decision to not wear gear a reflection of who the rider is?

The rider, if they so choose, has the right to deny anyone on to the back of their bike for any reason (lack of gear including). But the passenger also has just as much a right to not get on a bike if they don't feel properly protected. If you are going to call someone who you feel is under geared an "A-hole", at least make it the right person.

You sir, are a fool.

Every single under-geared young female passenger I've spoken with has been completely oblivious to the dangers of road rash in the event of a crash. Their boyfriends did not educate them, and they were unaware of what would happen to their bare skin in the event they were taken out by a Prius or a puddle of glycol from an overheating car. The majority of them had conversations with their boyfriends, resulting in them sulking about the imminent cash outlay they were going to have to make for their girlfriends.
You assume the girls understand the dangers- the majority of them DON'T.
And when I see a rider geared up, and his pillion not, then I will ALWAYS jump to the conclusion that he's a selfish prick who cares more about the money in his wallet than the girl riding behind him.

...but please, please, please stop trying to take away a mans right to decide what he wears while riding.

I don't think safety gear should be mandated. I HATE the "nanny-state" California is becoming. I think everyone has the right to make as many stupid decisions as they want, as long as their stupidity only affects them (by that, I mean things like mandating use of a car seat- you don't want to wear a seatbelt? Fine- but you don't have the right to make your baby into a human projectile in the event of a car crash).
And when an undergeared rider is too hurt to ride his bike home, then I'll roll out my truck, scoop up their bike, and even offer to pick them up from the hospital, because that's how I roll. I've even driven one to the hospital, and then hauled his bike to his house and unloaded it there for him. My only requirement was that he not bleed on my truck seat.
Had he been wearing something other than jeans, he would simply have picked his bike up, and continued his ride, sporting bruises instead of road rash and a lovely view of his knee cap. As I've said before, I've seen more actual knee caps than any woman I know not in the medical profession.

 

[Breaking Daniel]

...You assume the girls understand the dangers- the majority of them DON'T.
And when I see a rider geared up, and his pillion not, then I will ALWAYS jump to the conclusion that he's a selfish prick who cares more about the money in his wallet than the girl riding behind him.

I totally understand why you would make that conclusion. The fact that ignorance of the law is no excuse is relevant to me in this conversation, as well as common sense.

If I get arrested for murder (and I truly am guilty of doing it), the law will not excuse me simply because I did not know murder was illegal. Just because the girl in our example was never educated about it, doesn't mean we should hold the other person accountable for the girls actions.

Also, it only takes a little common sense to know what happens when you fall off a motorcycle. No formal education or training is needed to understand that skin and asphalt don't mix. Everyone in their life has tripped and scraped their knee to learn this lesson, so I don't buy in to the idea that some people just don't know.

...by that, I mean things like mandating use of a car seat- you don't want to wear a seatbelt? Fine- but you don't have the right to make your baby into a human projectile in the event of a car crash...

+1
I seriously couldn't agree more. Nothing pisses me off more in life than someone putting an underage kid (especially an infant or toddler) in danger.

At least you and I can agree on some things...like the existence of a Prius hit list that contains both our names.

 

[Breaking Daniel]

Just a little extra fuel for the fire.

Not all the gear is on the body... My bike wears gear as well.

The best tires for the type use, and best brakes for the type use, and check everything to know all is well.

Good point. I hate to pour even more but, here's a hypothetical situation.

Suppose my bike has no gear (frame sliders, engine guard etc...) and I crash on 101 because a Prius hits me (I am at 0% fault in this story). It takes 1 hour for state funded cleanup crews to clear the wreckage of my bike which is now in pieces and caused a hazardous materials spill.

Do the same people that contest (which may be true) that my lack of body gear causes higher insurance rates consider the lack of gear on my bike as a contributing factor to higher taxes to fund that cleanup crew? If my bike in the story had a full engine guard and everything, maybe the cleanup would have been as simple as picking up the bike and rolling it off the highway in a matter of seconds.

 

[afm199]

Good point. I hate to pour even more but, here's a hypothetical situation.

Suppose my bike has no gear (frame sliders, engine guard etc...) and I crash on 101 because a Prius hits me (I am at 0% fault in this story). It takes 1 hour for state funded cleanup crews to clear the wreckage of my bike which is now in pieces and caused a hazardous materials spill.

Do the same people that contest (which may be true) that my lack of body gear causes higher insurance rates consider the lack of gear on my bike as a contributing factor to higher taxes to fund that cleanup crew? If my bike in the story had a full engine guard and everything, maybe the cleanup would have been as simple as picking up the bike and rolling it off the highway in a matter of seconds.

Yes,but mitigated by the savings incurred in smog cleanup due to the moto and the Prius both being very fuel saving. Thus the equation balances slightly in favor of the Prius for hitting you and thus reducing further the costs of smog mitigation by eliminating your moto whilst you escaped, Thank God, unscathed.

 

[louemc]

Good point. I hate to pour even more but, here's a hypothetical situation.

Suppose my bike has no gear (frame sliders, engine guard etc...) and I crash on 101 because a Prius hits me (I am at 0% fault in this story). It takes 1 hour for state funded cleanup crews to clear the wreckage of my bike which is now in pieces and caused a hazardous materials spill.

Do the same people that contest (which may be true) that my lack of body gear causes higher insurance rates consider the lack of gear on my bike as a contributing factor to higher taxes to fund that cleanup crew? If my bike in the story had a full engine guard and everything, maybe the cleanup would have been as simple as picking up the bike and rolling it off the highway in a matter of seconds.

No You are not 0% fault, in that story...You are 100% at fault Dumbass, in that story...You let a car hit you.

The rest of it doesn't matter to me...The rest of it wouldn't exist, either...Except for the One important thing...You let a car hit you.

 

[afm199]

Also, it only takes a little common sense to know what happens when you fall off a motorcycle. No formal education or training is needed to understand that skin and asphalt don't mix. Everyone in their life has tripped and scraped their knee to learn this lesson, so I don't buy in to the idea that some people just don't know.

You'd think so wouldn't you? But people also believe they are in control of their destiny and don't wear gear because they know they won't crash. How anyone can wear gear ( see it all the time) and let their girlfriend ride on the back in shorts and a t shirt befuddles me. I will make one observation: They don't love that person.

But then people know they have to pay back credit cards and run up humongous debt on them anyway.

There is a big difference between "knowing" and "understanding". Most new riders don't understand that a fifty mph crash in jeans and t shirt resembles being held up to a giant belt sander for several seconds.

 

[Breaking Daniel]

No You are not 0% fault, in that story...You are 100% at fault Dumbass, in that story...You let a car hit you.

The rest of it doesn't matter to me...The rest of it wouldn't exist, either...Except for the One important thing...You let a car hit you.

I don't typically say things this offensive but, if you are serious in you're statement, you are a complete and utter idiot.

What you are implying is that every rider throughout all of history who has been hit by a car is 100% at fault? What about the rider who gets t-boned by a red light runner through an intersection that you can't see down the cross streets? Or the rider (in our hypothetical situation) who is riding down 101, defensively positioned, wearing all his gear to include hi-vis colors, obeying all traffic laws and guidelines, and maintaining full situational awareness and still manages to get hit because the Prius next to him blows a tire at 50mph and veers directly into him in the blink of an eye?

Seriously guy, to even imaging how you came up with that statement is nearly incomprehensible. "You let a car hit you"!?

 

[Bravnik]

Breaking Daniel - I will ask you this one question.

Knowing you are prior military and spent time on patrol in the middle east. Would you ever go into a potentially hostile situation without wearing your gear due to being hot or uncomfortable? I think not.

Every time you put your leg over your seat you are heading directly into a potential hostile situation. Those Prius are just as dangerous as an IED

 

[louemc]

I don't typically say things this offensive but, if you are serious in you're statement, you are a complete and utter idiot.

What you are implying is that every rider throughout all of history who has been hit by a car is 100% at fault? What about the rider who gets t-boned by a red light runner through an intersection that you can't see down the cross streets? Or the rider (in our hypothetical situation) who is riding down 101, defensively positioned, wearing all his gear to include hi-vis colors, obeying all traffic laws and guidelines, and maintaining full situational awareness and still manages to get hit because the Prius next to him blows a tire at 50mph and veers directly into him in the blink of an eye?

Seriously guy, to even imaging how you came up with that statement is nearly incomprehensible. "You let a car hit you"!?

It's incomprehensible to you...because your brain is in the non-aware mode.

That is something that can be left behind...But it takes knowing what to work at..and working at it. It takes learning how to toss a bike to a different line and location...Something done in aggressive dirt riding, commonly.

Laws and rules are for riders that haven't acquired their own rules...they need something, so they start with what some state agency DMV desk jockey or Noob school tells them.

I know what works....My history has been a study in perfecting and proving what works on the public road.

I'm very aware of how the un-known, seems to be a non-existing thing,
to the "hasn't got it yet"...but, such is life...that's your problem not mine..
And there is nothing I can do about that...Words don't tell you.

 

[angelsndevils]

Breaking Daniel - I will ask you this one question.

Knowing you are prior military and spent time on patrol in the middle east. Would you ever go into a potentially hostile situation without wearing your gear due to being hot or uncomfortable? I think not.

Every time you put your leg over your seat you are heading directly into a potential hostile situation. Those Prius are just as dangerous as an IED

^ A perfect point and waiting for the end of this odd pause in the hopes of a rebuttal. Lol

 

[TTTom]

I get where Lou is coming from. After 40+ years of riding w/o dropping a bike I'd say it helps to be lucky but you have to have an attitude of being entirely self dependant and paranoid.

You can't expect to last long if you go through life depending on other people not to fuck up.

I don't typically say things this offensive but, if you are serious in you're statement, you are a complete and utter idiot.

What you are implying is that every rider throughout all of history who has been hit by a car is 100% at fault? What about the rider who gets t-boned by a red light runner through an intersection that you can't see down the cross streets? Or the rider (in our hypothetical situation) who is riding down 101, defensively positioned, wearing all his gear to include hi-vis colors, obeying all traffic laws and guidelines, and maintaining full situational awareness and still manages to get hit because the Prius next to him blows a tire at 50mph and veers directly into him in the blink of an eye?

Seriously guy, to even imaging how you came up with that statement is nearly incomprehensible. "You let a car hit you"!?

 

[planegray]

twice I've seen scantily clad moto riders ( half helmet, tennis shoes, shorts, t shirt) shortly after they've collided with a cager and they were laid out on the ground in pain.

Not such a big deal, except that these were +100° days and who knows how hot it was right there on the blacktop. When I'm doing my commute in my one piece and sweating profusely I now KNOW what could be worse.

Can you imagine feeling the asphault cook your skin on one side, while the sun is cooking you on the other side, and being in too much pain to do anything about it ? Ugh

 

[louemc]

I get where Lou is coming from. After 40+ years of riding w/o dropping a bike I'd say it helps to be lucky but you have to have an attitude of being entirely self dependant and paranoid.

You can't expect to last long if you go through life depending on other people not to fuck up.

There is quite a collection of very experienced and savvy BARF riders on this thread, trying to tell him, the truth...
and it is not getting through to him....Has an un-real aspect to it...

 

[redtail]

You can't expect to last long if you go through life depending on other people not to fuck up.

Exactly!

Conversely, luck favors those who expect everyone on the road to be a fuck up.

 

[angelsndevils]

twice I've seen scantily clad moto riders ( half helmet, tennis shoes, shorts, t shirt) shortly after they've collided with a cager and they were laid out on the ground in pain.

Not such a big deal, except that these were +100° days and who knows how hot it was right there on the blacktop. When I'm doing my commute in my one piece and sweating profusely I now KNOW what could be worse.

Can you imagine feeling the asphault cook your skin on one side, while the sun is cooking you on the other side, and being in too much pain to do anything about it ? Ugh

We have one of those point and shoot infra-red thermometers at my shop. One day when it was in the 100's we took a reading out in the black top parking lot. To my surprise it was registering between 145-150 degrees.

 

[louemc]

We have one of those point and shoot infra-red thermometers at my shop. One day when it was in the 100's we took a reading out in the black top parking lot. To my surprise it was registering between 145-150 degrees.

Very true...Quite a lot of accounts of old people in communities in Tuson Az or similar spots, fall on pavement, and get such large area 3rd degree burns in just the few minutes before they can be picked up...They burn kills them.

The fry an egg on the sidewalk stories have an actual basis.

 

[Gixxergirl1000]

I totally understand why you would make that conclusion. The fact that ignorance of the law is no excuse is relevant to me in this conversation, as well as common sense.

If I get arrested for murder (and I truly am guilty of doing it), the law will not excuse me simply because I did not know murder was illegal. Just because the girl in our example was never educated about it, doesn't mean we should hold the other person accountable for the girls actions.

Also, it only takes a little common sense to know what happens when you fall off a motorcycle. No formal education or training is needed to understand that skin and asphalt don't mix. Everyone in their life has tripped and scraped their knee to learn this lesson, so I don't buy in to the idea that some people just don't know.

OK, so, the first part of your paragraph just has me saying "WTF??"... ignorance of the law/murder ?? That has absolutely NO relevance to the conversation whatsoever. A premeditated act against another human being is NOT the same as failing to consider worst case scenarios of a sport/past-time that you're essentially a passive observer to.
As far as you "not buying into the idea", it really doesn't matter what YOU think these girls should know or be able to figure out... the truth is, THEY DON'T KNOW. How do I know this? Because I've TALKED to them. They assume all crashes happen because the rider did something they weren't supposed to... and they all believ their boyfriends are the greatest riders EVAR... they don't understand that an overheating car can put enough glycol down to cause a bike to tuck the front... that the Prii leap out into oncoming motorcycles because that cyclist needs TEN FEET of clearance for them to pass him... on a blind corner... over the double yellow... that deer will jump in front of a rider and cause him to lock it up, and because he's only got 6 months of riding under his belt, he doesn't have the experience to keep the bike off the ground with 2 riders on it... they HONEST TO GOD DON'T KNOW THESE THINGS. And hell yes I blame the guy who owns the bike, because the PILLION'S SAFETY IS ALWAYS THE RIDER'S RESPONSIBILITY. And when I carry a pillion, they're in gear, or they don't get on the back- and if someone told me they wanted to ride in booty shorts and a t-shirt AFTER I explained why my pillions wear gear, then they aren't getting on the back of my bike- PERIOD. And I sure as hell don't ride like I would if it were just me. Their life is in MY hands- and I can't control what's going on around me, so I'm doing everything I can to increase the odds of their survival in the event Bad Things happen.

Good point. I hate to pour even more but, here's a hypothetical situation.

Suppose my bike has no gear (frame sliders, engine guard etc...)

No no no... you misunderstand. In Lou's world, "gear" for your bike is the proper tires (totally agree), a Scotts Damper, and handlebars.
Stick around here long and you'll learn...

I get where Lou is coming from. After 40+ years of riding w/o dropping a bike I'd say it helps to be lucky but you have to have an attitude of being entirely self dependant and paranoid.

You can't expect to last long if you go through life depending on other people not to fuck up.

Totally agree!

Exactly!

Conversely, luck favors those who expect everyone on the road to be a fuck up.

And again, totally agree!