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The debate about gear rages on

It's odd to me how the gear question incites such a level of "contention"

To clarify, because I think that contention even applies to the sentence above. I don't mean just the situation where an argument ensues with the sides of "I'm smart, you're stupid" or "I don't care about you, well I don't care about you either" or "You're placing a burden on me, no I'm not the burden is already there" but the fact that the subject automatically becomes adversarial.

I wear full gear all the time. I do it because I feel most comfortable doing that. If I see someone else in less than full gear or no gear, I don't lecture them, and in my mind I don't think them less intelligent or worse. As an MSF instructor for several years it was my job to point out the risks of riding and offer the best course of action to mitigate those risks, and of course, one of the primary methods was/is full quality gear. It didn't mean that if someone talked about riding around in shorts and flops in class that I would blast them and call their judgement in question. If they showed up to the range portion in that garb though I would send them home only for the reason that the safety policies require minimum protection while riding during instruction.

My initial reaction at seeing inadequate safety gear or no gear is "empathy" I literally "feel" for what the rider will go thru by skipping over what is essentially a very simple step compared to what they will have to endure in a crash.

Because it doesn't seem fashionable on a motorcycle website, or in the riding community in general to express empathy until after the fact. I often keep those expressions to myself. Its easier to just call someone stupid, and tow the "tough" line.

I've been busted up pretty badly in a crash, and in full gear including a rigid back protector. So when I see someone on the freeway with no gear, I cringe, literally and say prayers for that person that they will never have to feel 1/4 of what I did, ever, in any situation.

So, as far as the gear "question" is concerned, it is actually less a question than it is a gamble, and people gamble all the time, so if you feel comfortable blasting people for gambling all the time, then you probably feel ok about lecturing people about gear as well.

I'd wager (no pun about gambling intended :) ) that less than a small fraction of 1 percent of people who ride are "convinced" to wear full gear by simply the advice of others. Full gear riders are are those that had that in mind from the beginning, or were scared in some way into it by their own accidents or near misses, and let's face it, scary stories on forums rarely scare riders into full gear, especially younger ones.

I think a more appropriate course is to lead by example, and offer advice when requested or when required (MSF)

My Mom used to say, "If you want to make money, shutup and watch someone who has a lot of it, and do what they do" A rider learns best when they are motivated. Insults and chastising remarks do nothing for motivation other than to inspire someone to return the favor.

People however have a much better chance of responding to empathy and concern not couched in condescension. That rider that I see in flops, no shirt and shorts may very well be a much better rider, skill wise than I am. My only consideration is that I want them to stay that way for a really long time.

+1. Thanks for the well thought out response. :thumbup

I can't believe how this issue ignites such a passion to take sides in the debate. I've even received insults to my perceived parenting style over this. It makes me consider not ever posting anything in the future. I know the internet is full of people just wanting to post knee-jerk responses without any intellect whatsoever, but I didn't know it was this bad.
 
They call it "berry picking". That's irrigating a wound and using tweezers to pick out the small pieces of gravel and glass. I've had road rash that popped out gravel ten years later. :laughing (From bicycle crashes)

I have had the great pleasure of pulling gravel out of my palms....I now wear gloves all the time.

I have had the pleasure of scrubbing road rash and trying to sleep with it not to mention shower......I now wear long pants/jacket at all times. Though I don't necessarily wear leather pants unless I know I'm hitting the freeway for a distance or going to be riding the twisties. I do wear a leather jacket no matter how hot.

Because I don't want to have to deal with this:

WARNING: GRAPHIC, NSFW
http://youtu.be/vUV0X7Tc3tA
These are great reminders that gear can prevent or reduce painful and possibly disfiguring abrasions and other injuries resulting from hitting and sliding on pavement.

However, other posts imply that gear is effective against serious injuries resulting from impact with another vehicle. While a helmet can indeed save your life or prevent traumatic brain injury, other gear does not prevent fractures, partial or complete amputation, decapitation, or internal organ damage--injuries that can occur in a collision between a motorcycle and a vehicle or fixed object.

We do noobs no favors by exaggerating the effectiveness of protective gear. I'm sure the intention is good--persude them to wear proper gear. But leading them to subject themselves to greater risk than they would be comfortable with if they were more accurately informed is actually kind of cruel.

In addition, an unrealistic view of protective gear can have the effect of de-emphasizing the far more effective measures of crash prevention. After a minor crash that a more experienced rider could have prevented without even an emergency maneuver, a noob wrote: "It seems this is just one of those things that you wear gear for just in case." His perception of gear effectiveness reduced his perception of the relative effectiveness of better riding practice.

Gear is NOT a substitute for crash prevention. It's great for mitigating certain kinds of injuries when preventive measures fail.
 
I don't mean to sound so rude, but, thank you for proving my point.

You said "...I figured out a long time ago that I have NO CONTROL over what the douche canoes driving/riding around me are going to do."

You're 100% accurate in that statement. My proposal is that ATGATT is INJURY PREVENTION...not accident prevention. You wearing ATGATT is your choice, and I respect and admire it. But your gear does absolutely nothing in the way of preventing an accident. An accident is caused by either you over riding your abilities, an idiot cager, mechanical failure etc...NOT because you wore a tee-shirt. You also reference how you respect Corndog's riding abilities even if he rides "undergeared" some times. Obviously you know him, but how do you not know that the other "undergeared" rider you see on the highway isn't Josh Hayes, Valentino Rossi, or some other world class rider?

Something I totally agree with that you said is in regards to the existence of a Prius hit squad. :rofl I swear I'm on the same list you are.

3 near-death experiences at the hands of the Prii... :nchantr

Having spent years "out there", my anecdotal experience has been that the vast, overwhelming majority of under-geared riders are inexperienced. Off hand, I can come up with one who didn't fall into that category.

I had a huge chunk of dead animal hit me square in the face mask one time.....thus I will NEVER ride without a full helmet. Had I been wearing a beanie I would have had that shit in my mouth and I would have probably wrecked :shocker

OMG... :barf :barf :barf

I understand your point, but honestly thats just a small percentage of it. insurance rates for up for fender benders. totaling out bikes that are mechanically sound based on cosmetics. talk about MILLIONS of dollars there.

The insurance industry is a complete scam, and we all know it.

Really, you're touching on the subject of forced safety. to which I have to ask, at what point do we lose our freedom?

I'm not an advocate of not wearing safety gear. I support gear 1000%. But it IS a choice, and we should be able to make it.
there is a difference between learning a lesson, and forcing an issue.

I say, heed the wisdom of people who have made the mistake previously, and do our due diligence to not make it happen again; but don't make the decision for people.

Agree 100%
 
+1. Thanks for the well thought out response. :thumbup

I can't believe how this issue ignites such a passion to take sides in the debate. I've even received insults to my perceived parenting style over this. It makes me consider not ever posting anything in the future. I know the internet is full of people just wanting to post knee-jerk responses without any intellect whatsoever, but I didn't know it was this bad.

FWIW, I enjoyed reading your first post, basically separating the idea of protection from prevention -- and then the many comments that followed. I suspect we all think about gear at some level, from how to stay warm when it's cold, to how protective exactly is various gear in all the different forms. Yes, there is a great differences in acceptance of risk among riders, given we are participating in a risky sport (logically life itself isn't a risk, the outcome is certain)

Sorry, getting wordy. What I mean to say is thanks for posting, I believe posts like this gets many, most of us thinking in our own way about protection, pro and con, and I believe that's a good thing. Thanks.

WWWobble
 
FWIW, I enjoyed reading your first post, basically separating the idea of protection from prevention -- and then the many comments that followed. I suspect we all think about gear at some level, from how to stay warm when it's cold, to how protective exactly is various gear in all the different forms. Yes, there is a great differences in acceptance of risk among riders, given we are participating in a risky sport (logically life itself isn't a risk, the outcome is certain)

Sorry, getting wordy. What I mean to say is thanks for posting, I believe posts like this gets many, most of us thinking in our own way about protection, pro and con, and I believe that's a good thing. Thanks.

WWWobble

Thank you. I'm always happy to share. And even though I don't typically commute in gear, I do use it for weather protection as you pointed out.
 
PSA - Those of you that say wearing shorts and T-shirts help keep you cool, that's like saying Whiskey keeps you warm in freezing tempatures. It's false. There is a reason why the hottest places on earth people wear long sleeve clothes and pants. Dehydration happens a lot faster if you are not covered and your skin exposed. You need to sweat and if you are not sweating then that is bad. You may feel cooler but that is a placebo as it's nothing but the air flow cooling the skin. This means even mesh gear is not a good idea in hot conditions. If you are sweating then your body is cooling via evaporation of said sweat which is your body defense. Just keep yourself hydrated and use a cooling vest or neck cooler to help. Opening vents, taking off gear or wearing mesh is just exacerbating the situation. If you stop sweating then you are on the short road to heat stroke.
 
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PSA - Those of you that say wearing shorts and T-shirts help keep you cool, that's like saying Whiskey keeps you warm in freezing tempatures. It's false. There is a reason why the hottest places on earth people wear long sleeve clothes and pants. Dehydration happens a lot faster if you are not covered. You need to sweat and if you are not sweating then that is bad. You may feel cooler but that is a placebo as it's nothing but the air flow cooling the skin. This means even mesh gear is not a good idea in hot conditions. If you are sweating then your body is cooling via evaporation of said sweat. Just keep yourself hydrated and use a cooling vest or neck cooler to help. Opening vents, taking off gear or wearing mesh is just exacerbating the situation.

That's OK for long rides, but when you're just commuting, dehydration is not an issue.
 
I only buy my oil at the BMW dealership, and I use Dupont Teflon Chain lube.

I have one bike with a loud exhaust, and one bike with a quiet exhaust.

I wave to everyone except when I don't.

Cops can't catch you everytime.

My first bike was a liter bike...and the first thing I did on it was change the exhaust for more performance.

I am thinking of buying an icon flak jacket vest thing for longer rides when it is going to be hot out.
 
PSA - Those of you that say wearing shorts and T-shirts help keep you cool, that's like saying Whiskey keeps you warm in freezing tempatures. It's false. There is a reason why the hottest places on earth people wear long sleeve clothes and pants. Dehydration happens a lot faster if you are not covered and your skin exposed. You need to sweat and if you are not sweating then that is bad. You may feel cooler but that is a placebo as it's nothing but the air flow cooling the skin. This means even mesh gear is not a good idea in hot conditions. If you are sweating then your body is cooling via evaporation of said sweat which is your body defense. Just keep yourself hydrated and use a cooling vest or neck cooler to help. Opening vents, taking off gear or wearing mesh is just exacerbating the situation. If you stop sweating then you are on the short road to heat stroke.

False...ish :)

I spent 15 months fighting in Iraq, and I was wearing full body armor on top of my long sleeve uniform. Trust me, we were not cool. Yes, you have to sweat in order to accomodate evaporation, but the second ingredient for evaporation in the equation is airflow. You do need some airflow to pull that heat away from your body, which is called convection. Same way your radiator works on your bike, it requires fluids and airflow. So back to my personal experiences in Iraq, the locals wore long sleeve "man dresses" which provided the needed perspiration and airflow. Who knew wearing a dress could be so practical :p
 
That's OK for long rides, but when you're just commuting, dehydration is not an issue.

This is true yes. However, I would argue wearing gear is more important when commuting because that is usually when more people are around you and the risk of an accident is greater. Unless of course your definition of commute and mine are different. I don't consider going to the store commuting.

With that said, I could never justify any reason on earth why I would ride with shorts, t-shirt and no gloves. Especially when it's a proven fact that most accidents happen within 5m of your home. Studies have proven that people simply seem to drive with less care closer to home because they feel safer in a known area. I might risk it riding to the store in blue jeans but, for me, that is about as much risk as I will take. I like my skin.
 
False...ish :)

I spent 15 months fighting in Iraq, and I was wearing full body armor on top of my long sleeve uniform. Trust me, we were not cool. Yes, you have to sweat in order to accomodate evaporation, but the second ingredient for evaporation in the equation is airflow. You do need some airflow to pull that heat away from your body, which is called convection. Same way your radiator works on your bike, it requires fluids and airflow. So back to my personal experiences in Iraq, the locals wore long sleeve "man dresses" which provided the needed perspiration and airflow. Who knew wearing a dress could be so practical :p

Oh I agree. You need airflow for evaporation to work and you also need low humidity, if the humidity is too high evaporation will not work.

However, the air flow should not be 70mph of dry heat as that will just cause you to evaporate to quickly for your body to keep up with making sweat. So in heat higher than your body temp (90+) you really should not even have any vents open as your body will just absorb the heat.

Ether way, I'm sure you agree that in Iraq you were better off wearing your gear all day than you would be wearing a t-shirt and shorts :) Oh and thanks much for your time, I know I appreciate it. I was 9 years in the military but never left the states. You have my respect sir.
 
Oh I agree. You need airflow for evaporation to work and you also need low humidity, if the humidity is too high evaporation will not work.

However, the air flow should not be 70mph of dry heat as that will just cause you to evaporate to quickly for your body to keep up with making sweat. So in heat higher than your body temp (90+) you really should not even have any vents open as your body will just absorb the heat.

Ether way, I'm sure you agree that in Iraq you were better off wearing your gear all day than you would be wearing a t-shirt and shorts :) Oh and thanks much for your time, I know I appreciate it. I was 9 years in the military but never left the states. You have my respect sir.

Likewise. And yes, in that case (downrange), I was ATGATT. Lol. :troy
 
False...ish :)

I spent 15 months fighting in Iraq, and I was wearing full body armor on top of my long sleeve uniform. Trust me, we were not cool. Yes, you have to sweat in order to accomodate evaporation, but the second ingredient for evaporation in the equation is airflow. You do need some airflow to pull that heat away from your body, which is called convection. Same way your radiator works on your bike, it requires fluids and airflow. So back to my personal experiences in Iraq, the locals wore long sleeve "man dresses" which provided the needed perspiration and airflow. Who knew wearing a dress could be so practical :p

Duh- women! :x


Until we put stilletto heels with it... :facepalm
 
Is there really an argument about gear? Leather helps with skin abrasion and helmets help protect the head. Even guys that wear no gear must know that, I would think? People take risks. For me it's too big of a risk not to wear gear. I guess other people have a different threshold of risk.
 
If you've been long enough you'll see an argument about load pipes, bike values, and even an argument about arguments.

Triple Time
 
If you've been long enough you'll see an argument about load pipes, bike values, and even an argument about arguments.

Triple Time

Sometimes you just want a debate...

[youtube]kQFKtI6gn9Y[/youtube]
 
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