The debate about gear rages on

[louemc]

Everyone who shares the road with a Motor Vehicle should be required to have mandatory safety gear?
I've heard of pedestrians getting hit by a car, bus, truck, or van. The next time I walk down the street for dinner, if I have to cross the street I'm wearing a DOT-approved helmet, neck brace and a back-protector or Icon vest!!! Safer yet, I'll drive the cage (with my mandatory seat belt and mandated air-bags).

Those pedestrians Didn't listen when their parents told them to look both ways.. before stepping into the street.

People that insist on being dumb ass's can't be protected from themselves.

The gear doesn't make you invincible.

 

[Breaking Daniel]

OP have you had or ever seen someone with a serious case of RASH...truth be told not sure is worse... crashing and getting rash...or ER Doc cleaning the rash out with a brush....YIKES!!!

Actually I base my opinion on experience. I've got the rash scars to prove it, and the memories of the ER doctor scrubbing it out as well.

Based on MY experience, lack of gear had NOTHING to do with me actually going down. My dumb ass over-riding my abilities contributed to me having a solo vehicle accident. MY riding caused the crash, not my lack of gear.

Several people on here, I fear, would also say things like "Guns kill people." Because, you know, guns pull their own triggers right? Therefore, "exposed human epidermis on a motorcycle grabs the throttle and twists it uncontrollably until the rider is bucked off"...DUH!

 

[Breaking Daniel]

What a load of crap.
I'm an ATGATT rider because I figured out a long time ago that I have NO CONTROL over what the douche canoes driving/riding around me are going to do. I've been riding for decades, and have never crashed on the street, and have no plans to whatsoever. But I've had 4 near death experiences, 3 at the hands of Prius drivers... so yeah, there's a Prius Assassin Squad out there, and they have a list, and I'm pretty sure I'm on it. So I ride prepared, because guess what? It's not always up to me.
I'd love to see everyone choose to wear gear. To ME, it's indicative of someone who's smart enough to have figured out that what we do is risky, and they're doing everything they can to minimize the potential damage in the event Bad Things happen.
Undergeared? Then I come to the conclusion that you're inexperienced/uneducated... or not real bright...
Doesn't mean I'm right, it's just my own personal conclusion.
And, TBH, for the most part, it's been a reasonably accurate assessment. Not 100%... for instance, I know Corndog has decades of riding under his belt, and I know he could ride circles around me, and he chooses to ride what I personally would term "undergeared" on occasion. But he's been riding long enough to know the risks, and to have the skills a n00b doesn't to avoid a lot of the danger out there.
If someone wants to make what I personally feel is a bad decision, that's their right. Have at it!

But if they stack their bike, and road rash the crap out of themselves, they're riding in the back of the truck with their wadded bike when I come to scoop 'em up, cuz I don't want 'em oozing/bleeding on the seat of my truck!




OK, totally kidding about that last part, just in case anyone took that seriously....

I don't mean to sound so rude, but, thank you for proving my point.

You said "...I figured out a long time ago that I have NO CONTROL over what the douche canoes driving/riding around me are going to do."

You're 100% accurate in that statement. My proposal is that ATGATT is INJURY PREVENTION...not accident prevention. You wearing ATGATT is your choice, and I respect and admire it. But your gear does absolutely nothing in the way of preventing an accident. An accident is caused by either you over riding your abilities, an idiot cager, mechanical failure etc...NOT because you wore a tee-shirt. You also reference how you respect Corndog's riding abilities even if he rides "undergeared" some times. Obviously you know him, but how do you not know that the other "undergeared" rider you see on the highway isn't Josh Hayes, Valentino Rossi, or some other world class rider?

Something I totally agree with that you said is in regards to the existence of a Prius hit squad. I swear I'm on the same list you are.

 

[Breaking Daniel]

Lot of anger and defensiveness from the non-gear / undergeared posters in this thread.
Everyone is free to ride and gear up (or not) however they wish. For those that wear little/no gear, or the barest minimum DOT-legal helmet, you are certainly free to do so, but you probably shouldn't be surprised or upset when I (and from the posts in this thread, many others) immediately judge your book by the cover and classify you as an unskilled clueless rider.

Honestly, I'm not trying to be defensive but, I'd like to share the flip-side of that with everyone.

When I bought my latest bike, a 12' R-1, a new rider was in there buying a 13' ZX-10R. He then proceeded to go upstairs (GP Sports in San Jose) and peruse catalog for a full racing suit for protection purposes. Props to him for wanting to save his skin, but the lesson here is this; That just because someone is going down the highway in a tee-shirt doesn't make them a squid or inexperienced rider, and the guy that is ATGATT going down the highway is by no means an indication that that isn't his first time ever riding a motorcycle on the highway.

I'm just offering that in the interest of being fair. When I see someone going down the highway ATGATT, I truly commend them for wanting to save their skin, but after I watch them ride for a few miles, I begin to notice that I (in my tee-shirt) am often times the much safer rider. Sometimes I'm not. But either way, the gear has nothing to do with it.

 

[Breaking Daniel]

...Many younger riders have heard it since before they took up motorcycling, and it is so deeply engrained that they can't even imagine riding without it...

Interesting write up DataDan. I don't know why, but I always tend to walk away from your posts a bit more educated in a matter. Thanks for that.

Based on what you said, I have realized that I may have a double standard on this issue. When my son (who is 3 now) starts to ride (if he wants to), I am not going to allow it unless he is ATGATT. Of course other things play into it such as being mature, responsible etc...but I am not going to allow him to ride under the age of 18 without gear. With that being said, I don't base that on crash prevention theories. It is simply so that if he does go down, he sustains fewer injuries.

 

[afm199]

OP have you had or ever seen someone with a serious case of RASH...truth be told not sure is worse... crashing and getting rash...or ER Doc cleaning the rash out with a brush....YIKES!!!

They call it "berry picking". That's irrigating a wound and using tweezers to pick out the small pieces of gravel and glass. I've had road rash that popped out gravel ten years later. (From bicycle crashes)

 

[Bravnik]

So, for intellectual conversations sake, I propose the following question.

Why does everyone get so upset at people who don't wear gear?

I propose that wearing gear does NOTHING in the means of crash prevention. This would equate to the rider who crashes as only causing additional injury to himself, but still not having an affect on anyone else. It's his skin that pays the price, not mine. Gear serves only the purpose of injury prevention, but does not make someone less likely to crash.

I'm not wanting everyone to agree with me, but I can't be the only one out there that understands this. Or am I mistaken? Feel free to educate me if I have overlooked something. Either way, I wear gear sometimes, and ALWAYS ride within my limits as to prevent an accident.

Gear is like a condom, you wear it for the what if's.

I had a kid at 18....I now wear a condom every time.

I have had the great pleasure of pulling gravel out of my palms....I now wear gloves all the time.

I have had the pleasure of scrubbing road rash and trying to sleep with it not to mention shower......I now wear long pants/jacket at all times. Though I don't necessarily wear leather pants unless I know I'm hitting the freeway for a distance or going to be riding the twisties. I do wear a leather jacket no matter how hot.

I had a huge chunk of dead animal hit me square in the face mask one time.....thus I will NEVER ride without a full helmet. Had I been wearing a beanie I would have had that shit in my mouth and I would have probably wrecked

Knowing all this has happened to me, when I see someone wearing a t-shirt, short pants and no gloves I cringe. I learned the hard way.............

Oh and if you do choose to not wear gear, then don't cry, bitch and whine if you do go down. Be a man/woman and accept the consequences of your actions. In the end you have nobody but yourself to blame. Ride your own ride and accept the results.

 

[Rimmy]

Because I don't want to have to deal with this:

WARNING: GRAPHIC, NSFW
http://youtu.be/vUV0X7Tc3tA

I get upset because it isn't like we're making this crap up. you can SEE the result of these accidents, and we can learn from them. learn from someone elses mistakes. Its not even that difficult to do. hell they make over gear.

Ride your own ride, but don't cry to me when you were warned. By that same note, I make my own choices in my gear knowing full well the dangers.

 

[redtail]

I begin to notice that I (in my tee-shirt) am often times the much safer rider. Sometimes I'm not. But either way, the gear has nothing to do with it.

That really is a non sequitur, gear has everything to do with being safe in the event of a crash. As you mentioned before, wearing the proper gear is injury prevention (mitigation) not accident prevention, so if your chances of a crash are the same gear or no gear, than how are you the safer rider?

 

[Brown81]

You wanna be "safe"?

Sell your fucking motorcycle.

 

[Pking]

I usually ride full gear unless going around the block to check bike issues and oh yea...stuffing my cargo shorts with food before going into the theater!

 

[Marcoose]

WARNING: GRAPHIC, NSFW

Holy cow!

Ride your own ride, but don't cry to me when you were warned.

It's not even a matter of "crying to me". How many thousands of dollars will be spent treating that guy, and what's the repercussion on our insurance rates and on medical personnel that could be busy saving lives, etc? Certainly less than the cost of proper gear.

You know those exclusion and voiding clauses, like, we cover you all the time but if you X with/without Y then you're on your own? I wonder if insurance companies could say --not that they need more ideas to avoid paying treatments-- we'll cover you all the time expected if your riding in shorts. Or if you're driving without the seatbelt. Would people think twice?

 

[ToraTora]

Can't Think?

.

 

[MrIncredible]

You can make a lot of seemingly good arguments for that position, however, you are just plain wrong, and all of your logic is twisted up like a hot pretzel at the ball game. You want some mustard with that?

That salty deep fried snack is the sort of thing only eaten by the stupid and ignorant. It's patently unhealthy-give the boy some flax seed next time.

 

[redtail]

You wanna be "safe"?

Sell your fucking motorcycle.

I'd just end up buying another one...

 

[Feanor]

It's odd to me how the gear question incites such a level of "contention"

To clarify, because I think that contention even applies to the sentence above. I don't mean just the situation where an argument ensues with the sides of "I'm smart, you're stupid" or "I don't care about you, well I don't care about you either" or "You're placing a burden on me, no I'm not the burden is already there" but the fact that the subject automatically becomes adversarial.

I wear full gear all the time. I do it because I feel most comfortable doing that. If I see someone else in less than full gear or no gear, I don't lecture them, and in my mind I don't think them less intelligent or worse. As an MSF instructor for several years it was my job to point out the risks of riding and offer the best course of action to mitigate those risks, and of course, one of the primary methods was/is full quality gear. It didn't mean that if someone talked about riding around in shorts and flops in class that I would blast them and call their judgement in question. If they showed up to the range portion in that garb though I would send them home only for the reason that the safety policies require minimum protection while riding during instruction.

My initial reaction at seeing inadequate safety gear or no gear is "empathy" I literally "feel" for what the rider will go thru by skipping over what is essentially a very simple step compared to what they will have to endure in a crash.

Because it doesn't seem fashionable on a motorcycle website, or in the riding community in general to express empathy until after the fact. I often keep those expressions to myself. Its easier to just call someone stupid, and tow the "tough" line.

I've been busted up pretty badly in a crash, and in full gear including a rigid back protector. So when I see someone on the freeway with no gear, I cringe, literally and say prayers for that person that they will never have to feel 1/4 of what I did, ever, in any situation.

So, as far as the gear "question" is concerned, it is actually less a question than it is a gamble, and people gamble all the time, so if you feel comfortable blasting people for gambling all the time, then you probably feel ok about lecturing people about gear as well.

I'd wager (no pun about gambling intended ) that less than a small fraction of 1 percent of people who ride are "convinced" to wear full gear by simply the advice of others. Full gear riders are are those that had that in mind from the beginning, or were scared in some way into it by their own accidents or near misses, and let's face it, scary stories on forums rarely scare riders into full gear, especially younger ones.

I think a more appropriate course is to lead by example, and offer advice when requested or when required (MSF)

My Mom used to say, "If you want to make money, shutup and watch someone who has a lot of it, and do what they do" A rider learns best when they are motivated. Insults and chastising remarks do nothing for motivation other than to inspire someone to return the favor.

People however have a much better chance of responding to empathy and concern not couched in condescension. That rider that I see in flops, no shirt and shorts may very well be a much better rider, skill wise than I am. My only consideration is that I want them to stay that way for a really long time.

 

[louemc]

I don't mean to sound so rude, but, thank you for proving my point.

You said "...I figured out a long time ago that I have NO CONTROL over what the douche canoes driving/riding around me are going to do."

You're 100% accurate in that statement. My proposal is that ATGATT is INJURY PREVENTION...not accident prevention. You wearing ATGATT is your choice, and I respect and admire it. But your gear does absolutely nothing in the way of preventing an accident. An accident is caused by either you over riding your abilities, an idiot cager, mechanical failure etc...NOT because you wore a tee-shirt. You also reference how you respect Corndog's riding abilities even if he rides "undergeared" some times. Obviously you know him, but how do you not know that the other "undergeared" rider you see on the highway isn't Josh Hayes, Valentino Rossi, or some other world class rider?

Something I totally agree with that you said is in regards to the existence of a Prius hit squad. I swear I'm on the same list you are.

Several things....

A rider doesn't have any control over the actions of the Distracted/un-qualified (but has a license) to drive, driver...But...A savvy rider has control over themselves, to deal with/cope with those drivers.

A savvy rider dress's for what they are doing.

For me, odds are I will never have a conflict with another vehicle...But getting taken out by a deer is always a possibility. I have to dress for any occasion, and it also makes weather changes more comfortable at the same time.

Last year A Beautiful Stag deer flew though the air, across my path, about at my head and chest height. It was going from a high bank on one side of the road to no bank on the other side of the road.

It didn't see me before the jump, and I didn't see it either. If I would of been 12 ft ahead of where I was, ...it would of taken me off my bike.

As it was, I got to see a Beautiful Stag in flight, up close


Rotsa Ruck finding a Pro level Racer like You picked..riding on the street.

 

[Breaking Daniel]

That really is a non sequitur, gear has everything to do with being safe in the event of a crash. As you mentioned before, wearing the proper gear is injury prevention (mitigation) not accident prevention, so if your chances of a crash are the same gear or no gear, than how are you the safer rider?

Good point. I didn't intend to mean that I'm safer due to no gear, I meant that sometimes I am the safer/better rider, but happen to be wearing less gear.

Thanks for keeping me honest.

 

[Rimmy]

Holy cow!

It's not even a matter of "crying to me". How many thousands of dollars will be spent treating that guy, and what's the repercussion on our insurance rates and on medical personnel that could be busy saving lives, etc? Certainly less than the cost of proper gear.

You know those exclusion and voiding clauses, like, we cover you all the time but if you X with/without Y then you're on your own? I wonder if insurance companies could say --not that they need more ideas to avoid paying treatments-- we'll cover you all the time expected if your riding in shorts. Or if you're driving without the seatbelt. Would people think twice?

I understand your point, but honestly thats just a small percentage of it. insurance rates for up for fender benders. totaling out bikes that are mechanically sound based on cosmetics. talk about MILLIONS of dollars there.

The insurance industry is a complete scam, and we all know it.

Really, you're touching on the subject of forced safety. to which I have to ask, at what point do we lose our freedom?

I'm not an advocate of not wearing safety gear. I support gear 1000%. But it IS a choice, and we should be able to make it.

there is a difference between learning a lesson, and forcing an issue.

I say, heed the wisdom of people who have made the mistake previously, and do our due diligence to not make it happen again; but don't make the decision for people.

 

[Breaking Daniel]

So by this do you mean to say at 18 you will no longer care for his well being? Rather than being a master of the universe you will do what I fucking say father, why don't you try a little bit of education, and raise the little guy to be able to think for himself? Even with a tiny little brain it's easy to come to the conclusion (based on the data) that wearing gear is a really good idea. Oh yeah, and there is the old lead by example technique.

First off, NEVER presume you know anything about me, my son, or my parenting style. I don't have to explain myself to you, but I will at least dignify you with a brief response. FYI, I'm granting you some courtesy and respect as a human being, even though you showed me NONE, just because I have a different opinion than you.

My son is very much being taught how to make responsible decisions for himself. I don't raise him to think or feel that I am the master of the universe, in fact, he has more say-so than most 3 year old's. First and foremost, as a father, I am responsible for his safety. If I deem him responsible enough to ride a motorcycle underage, then I will require him to do it in the most injury preventing ways possible, which includes ATGATT. Once he turns 18, he is going to be legally held accountable in the worlds eyes, and I will allow him then to make his own decision a legal adult at that time. My hope is that he chooses to ride ATGATT, even if I don't. If hes old enough to be drafted and sent to war at 18, then hes old enough to choose whether he wears a jacket while riding for Christs sake.

PS. Please see the original question of the post, and note that you added nothing productive to the conversation, changed the topic, and attempted to belittle me in the process. Stay classy ToraTora...stay classy.