This is why ABS haters are wrong

[ilikefood]

Nope, sorry, 100% wrong. ABS reacts to a lockup in brakes. The older systems react to the lockup, release, and go from there, so the ABS will not trigger . The newer ones are so quick they seem predictive, but they are still reacting to a lockup event.

You are not going to learn better on a non-ABS bike - there is a certain skill you cannot learn on an ABS bike (drifting the front on the brakes), but that is an edge case that only exists for GP riders.

The reality is I can panic brake to a stop without ever triggering the ABS in situations where traction is good - if I have triggered the ABS it is because on some level I fucked it up. There is no better braking than you can do with properly enabled ABS because it only triggers if you lock up the front.

Again - if you do everything right and don't lock the tire/stoppie the bike, ABS doesn't trigger. If you do it wrong, then ABS will trigger to keep you upright. In either case, the consequences of a fuckup are less, that increases confidence, and gets a rider close to the limit sooner and more safely.

Nope. You're making a faulty assumption again - that there is a well-defined distinction between when the tire is rolling and when it's "locked up", and that ABS can detect when a tire goes from rolling to sliding.

This is simply not true. Tires are made from stretchy, flexible rubber. When you're braking hard, the front tire will be partly rolling and partly sliding. There is a pretty wide continuum between rolling and sliding. Braking is maximized at some point on that continuum. Some AB systems do a good job of figuring out what that point is, and don't intervene until the tire is closer to 100% sliding. KTM's ABS seems to do a good job of that. Other AB systems trigger as soon as the tire enters the rolling-sliding continuum, and let off the brakes even though it's possible to brake harder.

So as I said, unless your bike has really awesome ABS, it will kick in (at least on dry, clean pavement) before it really needs to. And because of this, you won't be able to learn to brake at the threshold between the tire rolling and sliding.

 

[Z3n]

So as I said, unless your bike has really awesome ABS, it will kick in (at least on dry, clean pavement) before it really needs to. And because of this, you won't be able to learn to brake at the threshold between the tire rolling and sliding.

Modern ABS is pretty much across the board that awesome, in my experience.

Also, with any form of modern tires, bikes stoppie long before they hit the rolling and sliding portion of threshold braking, so your entire argument is pretty moot, unless you're talking about situations where traction is limited/variable, in which case ABS is pretty much proven to outbrake humans every time.

Again, you're trying to invent an edge case that functionally doesn't exist, especially when compared to the fact that the majority of riders can't brake at 80% of max braking, much less 99.5% where you're managing a front end slide on the brakes.

 

[louemc]

Except when the limitations are beyond human ability

The Human Ability bar isn't real high, for riders that refuse to pay attention, though.

 

[ilikefood]

Modern ABS is pretty much across the board that awesome, in my experience.

Also, with any form of modern tires, bikes stoppie long before they hit the rolling and sliding portion of threshold braking, so your entire argument is pretty moot, unless you're talking about situations where traction is limited/variable, in which case ABS is pretty much proven to outbrake humans every time.

That is simply not true. Your understanding of ABS and of what actually happens at the contact patch when you're braking is rather simplistic. There are plenty of AB systems that are shitty, and most AB systems are outperformed by experienced riders (on clean, dry pavement). For example, the Multistrada ABS is (or at least used to be) particularly bad. Here is a quote from a MCN review:

But, for whatever reason, the Multistrada's ABS is a major disappointment, recording the longest stops we've ever measured for an ABS-equipped bike: with a best of 158.0' and others over 164'. The rear brake was so pathetically weak we degreased the disc and caliper as a precaution—no change. Concerned we had a bigger problem, we had our local Ducati dealer compare our test bike with another new Multistrada - it was exactly the same.

Thankfully, the ABS can be turned off. When it was, the stopping power returned, and we were able to shave nearly 44' of our stopping distances; down to just 114.3' from 60 mph - excellent.

A difference of 44 feet in favor of no ABS! Yeah, all AB systems are awesome, right?

How ABS works is a pretty complex thing, and there is a big difference between the performance of different systems. Some work well, some work poorly, and few (if any) will outperform a good rider on clean, dry pavement. Low-traction situations are of course another story.

Again, you're trying to invent an edge case that functionally doesn't exist, especially when compared to the fact that the majority of riders can't brake at 80% of max braking, much less 99.5% where you're managing a front end slide on the brakes.

Read my comments again. I'm addressing a very specific situation: learning how to brake at the threshold. In this situation, ABS is a bad thing. This doesn't mean that ABS is bad in general. As I said earlier, I would totally buy an ABS bike, as long as it's a good ABS (i.e. no Multistrada) that can be turned off.

 

[Rebus]

What those riders face, on the track, is groomed and prepped, and no match, for the dangers and unknown, of the street

A,BS aside, you are no, pretender to the crown, king, of punctuation, marks the ubiquitous comma

 

[NoobCorpse]

That is simply not true. Your understanding of ABS and of what actually happens at the contact patch when you're braking is rather simplistic. There are plenty of AB systems that are shitty, and most AB systems are outperformed by experienced riders (on clean, dry pavement). For example, the Multistrada ABS is (or at least used to be) particularly bad. Here is a quote from a MCN review:



A difference of 44 feet in favor of no ABS! Yeah, all AB systems are awesome, right?

How ABS works is a pretty complex thing, and there is a big difference between the performance of different systems. Some work well, some work poorly, and few (if any) will outperform a good rider on clean, dry pavement. Low-traction situations are of course another story.



Read my comments again. I'm addressing a very specific situation: learning how to brake at the threshold. In this situation, ABS is a bad thing. This doesn't mean that ABS is bad in general. As I said earlier, I would totally buy an ABS bike, as long as it's a good ABS (i.e. no Multistrada) that can be turned off.

But that's *when* it engages. My experience with my Multistrada's braking (and ABS) is that it takes quite a bit to engage it under "normal" hard braking, and it doesn't interfere with riding in general, including some spirited street riding and braking.
The ABS engagements didn't seem that radically different from the Triumph ABS systems I've had experience with.
I'd like to have ABS on every streetbike I own, as my experiences with it have been exceptionally great, and out of the 4 bikes I've owned over the course of 7 years, I've had about 6, maybe 7 times where I've felt ABS engage. Three times out of the 7 it was helpful, including one that saved me from the front tucking. Call me a noob scrub rider all you want, I didn't have to pick up broken bike parts or hit the pavement that day.

Full disclosure: I've owned 2 ducatis (both multis) and 2 triumphs with ABS, used for normal street riding over the last 7 years. No trackdays or racing or offroad (well, redwood retreat once on the multi).

 

[NoobCorpse]

How ABS works is a pretty complex thing, and there is a big difference between the performance of different systems. Some work well, some work poorly, and few (if any) will outperform a good rider on clean, dry pavement. Low-traction situations are of course another story.

I am pretty sure I've never engaged ABS on clean, dry, even pavement.


Edit: Most of the naysayer posts for ABS seem like they think ABS is a magic switch that flips on and sorts everything for the rider. It definitely does not - it's not as intrusive as you might think.

 

[NoobCorpse]

Read my comments again. I'm addressing a very specific situation: learning how to brake at the threshold. In this situation, ABS is a bad thing. This doesn't mean that ABS is bad in general. As I said earlier, I would totally buy an ABS bike, as long as it's a good ABS (i.e. no Multistrada) that can be turned off.

When you practice braking at the threshold, are you routinely locking up the front wheel?
Because that's when, and only when, ABS engages.

 

[ilikefood]

When you practice braking at the threshold, are you routinely locking up the front wheel?
Because that's when, and only when, ABS engages.

Sigh. Read my earlier comment that explains how there is a pretty wide continuum between when the front wheel is rolling and when it's sliding. When you're braking hard, the wheel is partly rolling and partly sliding. There is no single point when the wheel "locks up". Different AB systems can engage at different points along that continuum, but in general they engage too early. This is why - on clean, dry pavement - a good rider will outperform ABS.

 

[Marcoose]

...on clean, dry pavement - a good rider will outperform ABS.

Stop in shorter distance?

 

[MCSFTGUY]

CALLING DATA DAN.... DATA DAN PLEASE PICK UP THE WHITE COURTESY PHONE...

If anybody has an idea on this Dan will.....

REGARDING THE ABS kicking in to soon. This is not the case....

Motorcycle Consumer News has tested bike with ABS systems and I believe that they have not deactivated the ABS..... they test the bike to see if they can get to threshold braking without the ABS kicking in, and then test the bike and activate the ABS so that they can do a direct comparison of which mode is better.

The discussion about contact patch deformation is true.... however, the accelration graph of a vehicle transitioning from threshold braking to sliding..... static friction to kinetic friction has a clear maximum point and then a sharp drop off off showing that there is a pretty defined location where threshold braking ends and skidding starts.

Even with deformation at the contact patch there will still be rotation of the wheel... as long as there is wheel rotation the ABS should not pick up a sliding tire... when wheel rotation stops, that is when ABS kicks in.

The other area we have to be careful in thinking through is that we are not specifically talking about the micro-relationship at the contact patch in as much as we are talking about the Macro-issue of motion of the object and tires....

 

[NoobCorpse]

Sigh. Read my earlier comment that explains how there is a pretty wide continuum between when the front wheel is rolling and when it's sliding. When you're braking hard, the wheel is partly rolling and partly sliding. There is no single point when the wheel "locks up". Different AB systems can engage at different points along that continuum, but in general they engage too early. This is why - on clean, dry pavement - a good rider will outperform ABS.

I disagree with this assessment, based on my own personal experience of performing threshold braking and not engaging ABS - I think the situation you're describing does not engage ABS strongly enough to negatively impact braking.
However, since none of my experience was scientifically measured, and since I'm not an expert on the ABS systems equipped on the motorcycles I've had experience with (street riding only, mind you), I will continue to enjoy my opinions about ABS and its few intrusions (positively so) in my riding and braking.

I will not attempt to convince anyone who believes otherwise that ABS is a good thing on motorcycles, and will only continue to purchase ABS-equipped motorcycles, driving up sales numbers, and ruining it for the rest of you.

 

[MCSFTGUY]

Stop in shorter distance?

Yes... on clean dry pavement this is true....

The ABS works on a lock and release cycle.... so the ABS senses wheel lock up and releases the brake pressure enough to allow the wheel to spin again... during this release cycle the motorcycle is not under maximum braking... so there a multiple instances of time over the stopping distance where the motorcycle is braking under less than maximum threshold braking whereas the experience rider who can achieve threshold braking will be under the maximum possible braking rate over the entire distance. So even though the release cycle is small, it is still some amount of time of less than maximum braking so the stopping distance has to be longer.... not by much because the ABS systems are getting better...

However, on any surface other than clean dry pavement the ABS out performs standard braking.....

Again... the ABS is not so much about how fast you can stop, it is about allowing you to maintain control in a panic situation....

 

[aciurczak]

The sensors aren't waiting until lockup before figuring out what to do. That was when computing power was orders of magnitude slower than what is now available. All current tech systems are sensing the rate of change on wheel speed, and deciding what to do about it if that rate of change is fast enough to be a bad thing (bad thing defined as slipping more than appropriate while the bike is still moving). Deciding what to be done also now has more options; it's not just releasing all pressure in a quick stutter-step; better valving control can allow the system to lower the pressure with fine-grained control, to continue to allow the chosen rate of slip during deceleration all the way down. Look into the Honda patents for some good reading on this.

There are still bad systems out there, for a variety of reasons, so reviews can be helpful. There isn't a direct correlation between price of bike and quality of ABS system either, as some of the most effective ones are amortized against a wide swath of bikes at different price points. (i.e. the $5K Ninja 300 shares the same ABS module as the Hayabusa & the ZX-14, along with a few other Japanese makes).

 

[ALANRIDER7]

 

[Z3n]

That is simply not true. Your understanding of ABS and of what actually happens at the contact patch when you're braking is rather simplistic. There are plenty of AB systems that are shitty, and most AB systems are outperformed by experienced riders (on clean, dry pavement). For example, the Multistrada ABS is (or at least used to be) particularly bad. Here is a quote from a MCN review:



A difference of 44 feet in favor of no ABS! Yeah, all AB systems are awesome, right?

How ABS works is a pretty complex thing, and there is a big difference between the performance of different systems. Some work well, some work poorly, and few (if any) will outperform a good rider on clean, dry pavement. Low-traction situations are of course another story.



Read my comments again. I'm addressing a very specific situation: learning how to brake at the threshold. In this situation, ABS is a bad thing. This doesn't mean that ABS is bad in general. As I said earlier, I would totally buy an ABS bike, as long as it's a good ABS (i.e. no Multistrada) that can be turned off.

Without knowing how they're testing, it's impossible to say why they got such terrible results out of it - it seems like oftentimes the goal with "ABS testing" is to simply force the most "ABS cycles" out of the bike, and it is more than possible to brake in such a fashion that you intentionally cycle the ABS (ie, something like using primarily the rear brake to engage the ABS, which will also oftentimes cause the front to disengage as well).

I'm pretty sure I could make the KTM brake in a terrible fashion by doing something like that, but that's akin to claiming that a bike has a terrible stopping distance because you only used the rear brake. ABS still requires that the rider apply the brakes in a proportional fashion to available braking traction (70/30 or whatever, depending on weight distribution, wheelbase, etc, etc), and if you do something stupid like apply 50% rear brake and 50% front brake, I'm sure you can cycle the ABS system and end up with an extended braking distance "because of the ABS", when the reality is your technique would have never produced a good braking distance, ABS or not - the ABS just stopped you from wadding it up.

I mean, I have ridden that generation of Multistrada, and definitely didn't engage the ABS during a rolling stoppie, so something else is going on there - maybe they're braking hard enough to lift the rear, causing any application of the rear brake to cycle the ABS, causing the front to be released. Impossible to say without more info, though.

Also, to address your point - I would say probably 5% or less of riders are capable of actually threshold braking on asphalt without crashing (ie, rolling a 1 inch stoppie into a corner perfectly on the limit of traction vs. wheelbase). The vast majority of other riders put in that situation would lock the brakes.

Good ABS might need to be set to your riding style (the 1290 is best in sumo mode for my riding style), but if you're turning it off, you've purchased a bike with the wrong type of ABS for your riding. Especially true of ABS systems on current year bikes.

 

[MCSFTGUY]

Sigh. Read my earlier comment that explains how there is a pretty wide continuum between when the front wheel is rolling and when it's sliding. When you're braking hard, the wheel is partly rolling and partly sliding. There is no single point when the wheel "locks up". Different AB systems can engage at different points along that continuum, but in general they engage too early. This is why - on clean, dry pavement - a good rider will outperform ABS.

I kind of disagree with this based on testing with an accelerometer that I have seen that shows a clearly defined peak and the drop off between the transition of static friction to kinetic friction.

What you say about tire deformation is true... but we have to remember that the contact patch on a motorcycle is only about the size of a quarter so this deformation is minimal and as such has a minimal over all outcome when it comes to evaluating the motion of the object as a whole.

Transition from static friction into kinetic friction will occur as soons as the rotational speed of the tire no longer matches the forward speed of the object. Once this occurs the tire can no longer keep up with the speed of the object and lock up occurs.

Again.... when it comes to the comparison of ABS and non-ABS based on testing data from MCN.... the line between the two is blurring rapidly.

 

[MCSFTGUY]

Just thought of a caveat that needs to be added to all of this... we are talking about street performance and not track performance. Street tires and not track tires.

There are some differences between the two. But the general characteristics are the same.... on the track 1/100th of a second makes a difference so you are getting tires that can give you an advantage to this level.... if you were talking about 1/10 of a second difference... that is another story.

 

[Lunch Box]

I feel like this thread has now gone into the typical feedback loop mode where everyone repeats their stance repeatedly and nothing is gained. I have said my piece and will unsubscribe now. Have fun, kiddies.

 

[Burning1]

So as I said, unless your bike has really awesome ABS, it will kick in (at least on dry, clean pavement) before it really needs to. And because of this, you won't be able to learn to brake at the threshold between the tire rolling and sliding.

This is a silly point. Unless you're on a touring bike, the bike will stoppie before you get anywhere close to threshold braking. Every sport touring tire on the market is capable of this, nevermind sport and race tires.

Touring bikes can be traction limited, however in those cases the suspension tends to be a limiting factor before threshold braking is reached. On both my BMWs, pavement ireggularities will start causing small slides under braking.

It's more or less impossible to practice threshold braking in the wet. The threshold changes constantly, the margin of error is small, and most riders are too nervous to develop that skill. I have yet to see a single example of a rider that can out-brake an ABS system in compromised conditions. Usually the ABS system beats the rider by somewhere between dozens and hundreds of feet.