Thoughts on AWD cars?

[OldMadBrit]

...........
If you go STi or Evo, you're going to spend a a ton on insurance. How big is your garage? You want a car or an SUV, or something in-between? Wagon or 4-door?

Not so much, never been a problem for me

 

[OldMadBrit]

wrong.

subaru drivetrains are fragile, less responsive along the way at every step along the upgrade path, more expensive to modify in both parts and especially labor, and love understeer. mitsu engine significantly more robust in stock from, able to handle 400 ft lb of torque at the wheel with the stock bottom end and stock clutch. properly tuned, they don't break. heck, they have to have a tune quite out of whack to break, regardless. mine is a 450whp daily driver that uses the same setup for track time in open passing groups. i would never say the sti is at a comparable level, from driver involvement, feedback at the wheel and seat, the way the way the stock turbo recovers boost between shifts, or reliability once putting more power through OEM components. i have had enough time both at the controls and in ride alongs in scenarios that allowed real learning/exploring to see what well setup cars can do. the subaru platforms always feel like i'm trying to drive around a fundamental deficiency. the evo is so much more intuitive, so so so much more fun.

subaru also loves to understeer. slower steering rack, horrible seats. that car would have been the leader if it was the only one in the segment in america. then the evo came along (thanks to the market adoption of the wrx) and made the sti irrelevant. check the motor trend 2007 best handling car in america selction, or this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Seuvqhrsjwo

in the end, given any amount of money you can make one car faster than another. given the same amount of money, and evo will win every time. will break down less often. and most importantly, be so much more fun.

This I have nothing to add

 

[Critter]

Drove my buddies 2000 2.5 RS....Sold the pathfinder and now I'm looking for an Outback sport. Those care are FUN!

 

[Enchanter]

Not so much, never been a problem for me

Compared to a Lancer, I'm sure that you're spending more for your EVO.

When I switched from a 2005 STi to a C6 Z06, my annual cost dropped by 40%.

 

[Killroy1999]

IMHO, 4WD and AWD are a waste for driving up to Tahoe. If the roads are bad where you need 4WD/AWD, they are closed. Chains requirments are rare, so you will rarley get any utility out of AWD. Bang for the buck is not there.

If you live in Truckee, thats another story.

 

[TheRobSJ]

Is it true acura is coming out with an all new tl-x?

We will more than likely consolidate the TL and TSX into one model. And TLX seems to be what everyone thinks it will be called. Probably in a year.

 

[Archimedes]

I'm going to say that AWD is useful, especially in the wet,

Actually was a mag test a few years back that compared AWD to RWD in all conditions, I believe it was an Audi Quattro to a BMW 3 or 5 series. The only condition where there was a measurable benefit to AWD was in the snow. In rain the cars performed nearly identically.

 

[Archimedes]

IMHO, 4WD and AWD are a waste for driving up to Tahoe. If the roads are bad where you need 4WD/AWD, they are closed. Chains requirments are rare, so you will rarley get any utility out of AWD. Bang for the buck is not there.

If you live in Truckee, thats another story.

I'm sorry, wut? I've been in Tahoe many, many times where there is no way I would have gotten to my destination without 4WD in my truck. Even got caught on on a closed road once by a set of unfortunate circumstances and made it through an insane blizzard that would have been a potential life threatening situation without 4WD.

On top of that, some of us have no interest in using snow chains, so 4WD/AWD is worth the extra $.

 

[OldMadBrit]

Actually was a mag test a few years back that compared AWD to RWD in all conditions, I believe it was an Audi Quattro to a BMW 3 or 5 series. The only condition where there was a measurable benefit to AWD was in the snow. In rain the cars performed nearly identically.

Ha then they were not trying hard enough or they were in the wrong AWD car.

There is a reason that the SCCA banned Audi AWD's and Mitsubishi Eclips AWD's from racing back in the late 80's and 90's - they absolutely spanked all the far more expensive 911's and GT1 specials. The 911 owners all all of the SCCA's GT1 Class objected, so AWD's were banned for 20 years.

The whole point of high performance AWD cars is that they have unbelievable dynamics at the limit. Mitsubishi's EVO IX FQ 420 petty much set the benchmark for real world road and track performance when it was put up against pretty much everything else, over and over again.

The feature that really stands out was that any test driver could get consistent 10/10th lap times out of the EVO because it was so forgiving at the limit, whereas only one or two test drivers could get the best out of 911's, Corvettes and equivalent 2WD cars.

 

[billswim]

Can't believe you didn't call me OP ��. I've seen you drive. Nissan GTR all the way!

 

[littlebeast]

Actually was a mag test a few years back that compared AWD to RWD in all conditions, I believe it was an Audi Quattro to a BMW 3 or 5 series. The only condition where there was a measurable benefit to AWD was in the snow. In rain the cars performed nearly identically.

with regard to rain - at aggressive speed, identically and 'nearly identically' can be the difference between confidence and a puckered sphincter.

 

[augustiron]

I think people who don't "go to the mountains" think it is just about getting up I80 and into the ski area parking lot on reasonably plowed and serviced roads that have snow on them. Maybe that is what some of you do so you can get by with less car.

When I "go to the mountains" in the winter it involves a fair amount of driving up poorly plowed smaller back roads with lots of fairly steep up and down hills to get to the house, at night, then driving those roads the following morning to get to the mountain. repeat 4x over the course of a weekend.

Yes, I could be chaining up and maybe making it up the same roads in a 2wd but my stock 4runner has the ground clearance to deal with up to a foot of snow comfortably if needed AND the ice frequently underneath the snow with pushbutton ease if conditions start to warrant it, without getting out of the car. Lots of times the weather changes and you are not on I80 with a nice pull off area to chain up. If you spend a decent amount of time up there, especially in a heavy winter, 4wd/awd is the way to go.

Also, looking at the car of choice up there, Subarus 30:1 over Mitsubishi.
I played a game the other day as I was leaving the Tahoe Donner Clubhouse and asked the wife "how many Subarus are in this parking lot?"
out of about 40 cars 17 were Subarus. We LOLd. YMMV

See you on the hill (not in the chain up areas) arty

 

[V4]

i see more subarus at a trader joe's or whole food parking lot..the other half are prius's...

 

[billswim]

I changed my mind. I need more toys. You should get an Audi!

 

[louemc]

with regard to rain - at aggressive speed, identically and 'nearly identically' can be the difference between confidence and a puckered sphincter.

For Realz, and Going by test reports, at least reading them as Gospel, is shaky...Some things are best done/evaluated for yourself...

 

[Holeshot]

The poor OP.

This really shouldn't be a EVO vs STI thread.

But why? You had it correct the first time; the Cobalt SS is better stock than both those cars AND FWD...unless you must have AWD. Here's my experience at the track with AWD: the guys in the Subi's and Evo's spun more than anything out there, unless it was raining...and then they would merely depart the track. I'm not blaming the car, but I AM blaming the apparent lack of grip due to these AWD jockey's not understanding weight shift and contact patch when they turned in early and matted the throttle, expecting the AWD system to fix ALL of their errors. AWD is also more wear on tires, drivetrain, fuel economy, etc...but it IS nice in the snow/ slick.

A good Cobalt SS can be had for about $12K. $12K and you get a hell of a lot of car. Then go get a Subaru Outback wagon for $10K and use that for ski trips...IMO of course.

 

[Reli]

Knowing the type of people who own Cobalt SS's (16-23 year olds), I would not buy a used one. Plus they are one of the most boring looking cars, IMO. Made worse by that horrible rear wing.

 

[Holeshot]

Owners of Evo's are the WORST in terms of taking care of the things...the ones I see at auction are beat to shit under the wheel wells. Without a doubt, one of the worst owners cars, IME. Cobalts are actually well cared for (most) as they're Chevy brand loyalists who own and wax the shit of these things...but that's a pretty general statement. There are those who beat on the things...

BTW, 16-23 years olds are not the ones who beat on their cars. It's not limited to age...it's really unlimited and you never know who's beat on what till you own it. Sucks...

Boring...yeah, nothing ground shaking. But they own at the track and with a few mods, REALLY own at the track...for cheap.

 

[RickM]

I loved my wrx wagon when I had it. Very fun car and easy to drive fast. Couple annoyances were needing to get on the throttle earlier in a turn to make up for the turbo lag and the tall first gear.

AWD was definitely better than any front drive car when driving it hard. It turned better on throttle. Coasting through a turn the rear tires starts howling and getting on the throttle it grips better.

 

[Cycle61]

This is all you really need to know.

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