Tyre Nichols. Rest in Peace.

[mean dad]

Ya know, I almost wrote something about human nature and fight-or-flight responses in anticipation of the whole 'resisting' angle but felt I was already gettin kinda wordy. I doubt I'd be able to not react if someone tried to snatch me out of my vehicle after being pulled over for nothing.

But yeah for sure most police policies say it's cool to fuck someone up if you're in fear for your life and it makes it justifiable so I definitely covered that part.


Reach for your wallet and get shot? Too fuckin bad policy says it's ok.
But that has nothing to do with this case.

Can't follow instructions because they literally contradict each other and so you get shot? Too fuckin bad policy says it's ok.
But again that has nothing to do with this case.

Legal gun owner in your home but get shot anyway? Too fuckin bad policy says it's ok.
Definitely has nothing to do with this case.

Crazy how any time a cop is injured or attacked or killed that incident is sufficient to change policy everywhere; almost like they're not unrelated.
Every cop checks for weapons even if they've never ever had a weapon pulled on them.
New to the force, never been shot at? That's ok somewhere a cop was shot so now cops approach cars cautiously to avoid getting shot (as they should).

But look at all cop-on-people violence as a system-wide issue? No way man. They're all unrelated.

 

[greenmonster]

First off, we need a police force. Without them our cities would turn into murderous hellscapes within days.
That's the 30,00 foot view.

I've been watching YouTube vids lately of police interactions with suspects as recorded on their body cams, usually DUI pullovers or store trespassing or causing a scene, and the common thread with these is that the cops usually start right away issuing alpha commands in aggressive voice tones that seem to intensify the situation and puts the suspect in a childlike position. The balance of power in the interaction is taken over by the LEO leaving the suspect feeling powerless and disrespected.

I get the feeling that it's "I said jump and you're supposed to say how high" and if the suspect doesn't comply immediately because they are drunk, or scared or argumentative they end up being taken to the ground and cuffed.

Not all the police in the videos I watch are like that. Depending on the situation many go out of their way to remain calm when a suspect is screaming at them, or genuinely try to help in sad situations.

I get the fact that the LEO needs to take charge of the situation and every time they pull someone over that person could be holding a gun on them so they have to be careful.

I just wish there was a better way to interact with suspects. It seems that the initial "hi do you know why I pulled you over" very quickly turns into "GET ON THE GROUND M-FER".

 

[lefty]

I'm refusing to watch any videos. That stuff is trauma porn and makes the person's life all about their death. Plus, I can't stomach it.

Rest in power, Tyre. You deserve so much better than what you got and so does your family.

This. So much this. The older I get, the less I can tolerate watching unpleasantness.

 

[lefty]

I have a Nephew (by Marriage) who is a LEO. My Wife and I went to his academy training classes. They wanted the families to see what the training was like. He is (was) a "good" kid, but it did not take long for him to become indoctrinated into the culture. He has been a LEO for about 6 years now, and he 'seems' to have mellowed a bit. He is no longer a patrol officer, but is now a detective. I think that this has changed his demeaner. After the death of George Floyd he was ranting about "That POS deserved it".

I told my Wife that that POS would never be welcomed to my house. I have relaxed my position on him in the past year, because he has seemed to "mellow out".

But, what I want to share is this- he was at an Easter Brunch at my house a few years ago and his Aunt explained to him "that she was parked at a bakery in Campbell and she saw a Woman pull up with a baby in the backseat of her car. The Woman went inside the bakery and left the kid unattended in a car. She then asked what would you have done"



His response "Well, it depends on the neighborhood".

I f'n lost it. Unfortunately, that seems to be the typical response. If they feel that they can get away with it, they will. They would treat a person in Atherton VERY different than a person in E. Palo Alto.

 

[tzrider]

Bo, so far it sounds like Tyre was fully compliant, on the ground and not resisting while the cops were extremely aggressive, threatening and applying force. The reports I’ve read say Tyre didn’t resist or run until he was about to be tased.

If that’s accurate, a fight or flight response is understandable, as he no longer had reason to trust that the cops would restrain themselves if he continued to comply.

Perhaps it will turn out that there is more to his side of the story, but right now it looks like Tyre was trying to do everything you’d want a detainee to do.

 

[OldMadBrit]

Watched the video, they were sickening.
The thing that really jumps out was the barrage of conflicting commands they were yelling at him. The first cop opens the contact at full on rage and escalates from there.
It quickly turns into a pile-on with tasers, pepper spray, drop kicks and baton strikes, while still yelling at him to lay flat with his hand behind his back.
That just isn't going to happen, your autonomic system will force you to protect yourself.
I think I'd be dead too in the same circumstances.
I'd like to think it was shitty training, perverse SOPs and zero accountability. But I suspect all that yelling was just for the recoded audio and a beating was the SOP and it got out of hand.

 

[Johndicezx9]

Bo, so far it sounds like Tyre was fully compliant, on the ground and not resisting while the cops were extremely aggressive, threatening and applying force. The reports I’ve read say Tyre didn’t resist or run until he was about to be tased.

If that’s accurate, a fight or flight response is understandable, as he no longer had reason to trust that the cops would restrain themselves if he continued to comply.

Perhaps it will turn out that there is more to his side of the story, but right now it looks like Tyre was trying to do everything you’d want a detainee to do.

That's what I saw (regarding the taser) on the news report Sunday morning (CBS), as well as him responding to the multiple orders being shouted at him by different officers.

 

[TylerW]

Watched the video, they were sickening.
The thing that really jumps out was the barrage of conflicting commands they were yelling at him. The first cop opens the contact at full on rage and escalates from there.
It quickly turns into a pile-on with tasers, pepper spray, drop kicks and baton strikes, while still yelling at him to lay flat with his hand behind his back.
That just isn't going to happen, your autonomic system will force you to protect yourself.
I think I'd be dead too in the same circumstances.
I'd like to think it was shitty training, perverse SOPs and zero accountability. But I suspect all that yelling was just for the recoded audio and a beating was the SOP and it got out of hand.

Did you ever watch the video of Daniel Shaver's fatal shooting? The commands issued by the officer who shot him played out like a sadistic game of "Simon Says", only if you mess up, you get killed by a police officer.

 

[Ant]

Did you ever watch the video of Daniel Shaver's fatal shooting? The commands issued by the officer who shot him played out like a sadistic game of "Simon Says", only if you mess up, you get killed by a police officer.

That was really painful to watch.

 

[m_asim]

Not watching vids.

Yup. Couldn't make myself watch the video of Tyre's murder.

P.S. Amateur move by these cops. LA Sheriffs not only stop their cameras from recording but later come by and take any other cameras in the neighborhood as well. Hopefully things will improve under the new Sheriff.

 

[NorCalAthlete]

Next step for cameras - auto-sync with sirens and lights.

If I'm not mistaken, currently, as soon as lights and/or siren are activated, the event is recorded by the car and the dash cams automatically start.

I think that's probably going to be the next solution proposed, if it's not already. Take camera control completely out of the hands of the officers and deal with whatever privacy issues fallout from there.

However, that doesn't account for when officers are already out of their cars and dealing with someone. So I'm not sure what the trigger might be for camera activation there.

One thing that might help mitigate this stuff - regular rotations through different partners and departments. No staying in one unit with one person or team for decades. Regular rotations through multiple FTOs and multiple duties to be a more well rounded officer, particularly with regard to patrol areas. I know some departments have this available, but I don't think it's mandatory for any departments across the US. I think regular rotations could smooth out bad habits and help reinforce good habits.

Completely just my $0.02 though. I could be missing some downsides to doing that, in the "heat of the moment" brainstorming we're doing here.

 

[OldMadBrit]

Next step for cameras - auto-sync with sirens and lights.

If I'm not mistaken, currently, as soon as lights and/or siren are activated, the event is recorded by the car and the dash cams automatically start.

I think that's probably going to be the next solution proposed, if it's not already. Take camera control completely out of the hands of the officers and deal with whatever privacy issues fallout from there.

However, that doesn't account for when officers are already out of their cars and dealing with someone. So I'm not sure what the trigger might be for camera activation there.

One thing that might help mitigate this stuff - regular rotations through different partners and departments. No staying in one unit with one person or team for decades. Regular rotations through multiple FTOs and multiple duties to be a more well rounded officer, particularly with regard to patrol areas. I know some departments have this available, but I don't think it's mandatory for any departments across the US. I think regular rotations could smooth out bad habits and help reinforce good habits.

Completely just my $0.02 though. I could be missing some downsides to doing that, in the "heat of the moment" brainstorming we're doing here.

Great point regular rotations are SOP in other high stress/high consequence professions.

 

[OldMadBrit]

Did you ever watch the video of Daniel Shaver's fatal shooting? The commands issued by the officer who shot him played out like a sadistic game of "Simon Says", only if you mess up, you get killed by a police officer.

ugghh, no but I can imagine.

I'd really like to believe that what's happening is the result of really poor tactics and training, rather that deliberate.
However, the shit show of conflating orders and escalating violence by the LEO involved, could just as easily be a deliberate tactic designed to provoke a fight and flight response. I just can't see how these thugs could ever get a suspect into custody without a minimum of a severe beating, doing what they did.

 

[bojangle]

Great point regular rotations are SOP in other high stress/high consequence professions.

It obviously depends on the agency and type of agency, and there are thousands across the country, but around California/Bay Area, most agencies are set up with temporary assignments, especially among the lower ranks. One can stay on patrol their whole career, but there is almost always a bidding process where they will annually/semi annually work different shifts/districts/beats with different people. Most agencies around here cap working a special assignment at 3 to 5 years.

Initial Field Training is designed to have the recruit move through different training officers, usually 3.

 

[NorCalAthlete]

Yeah, like I said - I know some have it available, but I don't think that's the standard nation-wide.

 

[OldMadBrit]

Maybe part of the problem is the sheer number of agencies, goals, standards, methods of funding etc.

I'm certainly not advocating for a single large monolithic agency, or even a few state-wide agencies. However, the UK manages the 60-million strong lunatic asylum that I escaped from with a few 10's of agencies, maybe some consolidation over here would not be a bad thing.

I can't imagine that we could actually be capable of learning from countries that discourage "escalate first and justify later" in their police forces.

Looking back on my (way too frequent) encounters with law enforcement as a rebellious (and often inebriated) youth in the UK, I'm amazed by the patience and courtesy shown to me, by officers who could read the situation and were experts in de-escalation.

I doubt I would have made it past 19 if I'd grown up in a less tolerant part of the US.

Anyhoo, this is not about me... RIP Tyre, what they did to you was unforgivable.

 

[Kurosaki]

I don't like the narrative I've seen being pushed that because the cops that killed Tyre weren't racist because they were black too. Mostly from social media but social media is very powerful and influential to millions of people.

If you're indoctrinated into toxic police culture, what color you are, as a cop, doesn't matter. Young black men are still guilty until proven innocent. I've been harassed by black cops before for no legitimate reason.

DWB is a real thing. I would bet the farm it would happen while riding my motorcycle if it weren't for helmets with tinted visors.

 

[OldMadBrit]

I don't like the narrative I've seen being pushed that because the cops that killed Tyre weren't racist because they were black too. Mostly from social media but social media is very powerful and influential to millions of people.

If you're indoctrinated into toxic police culture, what color you are, as a cop, doesn't matter. Young black men are still guilty until proven innocent. I've been harassed by black cops before for no legitimate reason.

DWB is a real thing. I would bet the farm it would happen while riding my motorcycle if it weren't for helmets with tinted visors.

Good points. and not limited to the US. I saw it first-hand in the UK in my late 20's when my buddy was pulled over for DWB while I was sat next to him. Everything from the BS reason for the stop and the way the officer treated him versus me was an eye opener. Profiling at its worst.
We were both wearing business suits on our way to a client meeting in an expensive rental. The officer was clearly suspicious of and hostile to the sight of a black guy in a business suit. He started out super aggressive and hostile, like he'd caught us robbing a bank or something. I don't think he had noticed that I'm white at that point. He got flustered, apologetic and backed off when he saw I was white and was backing up my buddy.

A few weeks earlier, I was standing right next to the same buddy when a bank manager refused to open an account for him but was happy to open one for me, until I made a huge scene and pointed out that we both worked for the same company and the bank was located inside our campus.

 

[Holeshot]

Looking back on my (way too frequent) encounters with law enforcement as a rebellious (and often inebriated) youth in the UK, I'm amazed by the patience and courtesy shown to me, by officers who could read the situation and were experts in de-escalation.

Absolutely deescalation and verbal reasoning skills are important to LEO's and probably should be a larger part of the recurring training. However, what made Tyre's murder much different was the manner in which is occurred, without deadly weapons, but fists and batons. I continue to feel he was targeted for reasons that haven't been made public.

 

[Kurosaki]

Good points. and not limited to the US. I saw it first-hand in the UK in my late 20's when my buddy was pulled over for DWB while I was sat next to him. Everything from the BS reason for the stop and the way the officer treated him versus me was an eye opener. Profiling at its worst.
We were both wearing business suits on our way to a client meeting in an expensive rental. The officer was clearly suspicious of and hostile to the sight of a black guy in a business suit. He started out super aggressive and hostile, like he'd caught us robbing a bank or something. I don't think he had noticed that I'm white at that point. He got flustered, apologetic and backed off when he saw I was white and was backing up my buddy.

A few weeks earlier, I was standing right next to the same buddy when a bank manager refused to open an account for him but was happy to open one for me, until I made a huge scene and pointed out that we both worked for the same company and the bank was located inside our campus.

I'm sorry that happened to you and your friend but I'm also not surprised. Your story is one of a hundred I've heard before. Friends often don't really believe it until they see and experience it first hand and tell me they sort of understand now.

For the record, I am far from a "fuck da pohleece" type of person. Some of our BARFers are officers and I respect them very much and have talked to them about very personal issues privately. Also have some riding buddies that are police. They're not all bad, obviously, but you can't fault anyone for believing it is a culture unbalanced that is way overdue for change.

The responses from any of us being upset, venting about anytime these atrocities occur don't really help to change anything. That much is true. So what can we do? Just off the top of my head, maybe the process to be a cop should be held to a higher standard? I don't know how go about that. Obviously public outrage from millions of people changes nothing. Just anecdotally, I've seen guys I went to high school with become LEOs and my thought is "this dude gets to make life or death decisions and potentially get away with it because he has a badge?"

Does anyone have any statistics about racial profiling in other countries? For any skin color or demographic. I'm not being lazy but I know some folk around here are much more in tune with that kind of research than I am.

Absolutely deescalation and verbal reasoning skills are important to LEO's and probably should be a larger part of the recurring training. However, what made Tyre's murder much different was the manner in which is occurred, without deadly weapons, but fists and batons. I continue to feel he was targeted for reasons that haven't been made public.

Batons are deadly weapons, especially when there's multiple attackers and you're on your own.

DWB is not something that can ever be proven because it's always one person's word against another's but patterns of behavior matter. If you want to act like it wasn't a likely factor in the murder, that's on you.