What mean "countersteering"?

[revnort]

I really never understood why people get so uptight about this, and say it is just people trying to sound smart.

In a car if you want to go right, your steering input is clockwise. On a bike if you want to go right, your steering input is COUNTER-clockwise.

It is counter to what most people think. Want proof? Go ask someone who doesn't ride to pantomime turning a motorcycle to the right.

Now to be fair, most learn this when learning to ride a bike. Then they never think about it again. This is why everyone goes when you say it. It doesn't make sense until you THINK about it.

When I took the MSF, I finally decided I was going to stop thinking about countersteering because it was screwing me up in the class. I just did what felt natural (because it does if you learned to ride a bike). However later on in some hairy situations like coming into a turn to hot I knew to push harder on my inside arm as well as lean more to make the turn. I'd say the lesson was worth it.

 

[xgambit]

i went on a BMW demo ride last year (s1000r FTW!) with a bunch of grizzled riding veterans. they all wearing worn out stitches and bug strewn adventure jackets.

so i was completely surprised when i started seeing them blowing corners and doing dumb noob shit.

just goes to show you that you can have years under your belt and still not know jack shit

 

[flying_hun]

His response to me(if I understood it correctly) was that counter steering is done to reduce the contact patch of the tire thus making it easier to lean the bike over.

I'm guessing you didn't understand it correctly.

Isn't it obvious? If you need to tighten up the turn, you countersteer. If you need to straighten up, you steer in the direction the bike is leaning, to get the wheels under the bike. It ain't rocket science.

This.

 

[Traq]

gyroscopic precession

Has nothing to do with it.

 

[ST Guy]

"Countersteering" is a term used to make one think too much. It is akin to giving something done naturally a very long name- to make it seem more or less important. Think of the word "masturbation" then think of what it really is. See what I mean. The name means nothing, it is the action that counts. So it is with "countersteering."

So go ride, and don't think too much about what you already do.

Wrong. Every motorcyclist needs to at least understand how to do it (push foward on the bar on the side you want to turn to), even if they never understand the physics of how it actually works. Leaning is a crappy way to make a bike turn and is totally inefficient.

The reason every motorcyclist should understand at least that basics and get it ingrained in their heads is that there are incidences where riders, even those who have been riding for decades, get into a dicey situation and react the completely wrong way by trying to steer the bars like they would a tricycle and end up going exactly the opposite way. For instance, I talked with a rider once who had been riding for more than 20 years. In all that time you'd think he would have known and understood countersteering. He didn't and it almost killed him. He was going down a single lane road one day and at the last second, noticed an driver coming at him drifting over the center line. He reacted quickly but wrong. He tried turning the bars to the right to move to the right in order to clear the oncoming car. Of course, the instant he did that, the bike turned to the left and he hit the car head on. He barely survived. After he learned about countersteering, he desparately wished someone had told him of it long before. It would have saved him untold misery.

So, every rider should at least know that what turns the bike is pushing forward on the bar that's on the side you want to go to. And that leaning sucks for turning. And that what you're really doing when you lean on a bike is that the leaning itself puts more weight on the end of the bar on the side your leaning to and even if you're not pushing completely forward, there's still enough push forward to get the bike to turn.

 

[Brown81]

After being a pool instructor years ago I realized:

People can play pool every night for like 30 years and still suck and still not know what the fuck they are doing. One lesson could improve their game 100% in like an hour.

But, they prefer to suck and do it their way.


There are the rare individuals who never need instruction. Very rare, and gifted for the game. Pro's are sometimes like this. But, 99.9% would improve greatly with some instruction. It's the key to being good at stuff. There's your way, and there is the right way.

Motorcycles are the same way. In fact, damn near everything is the same way.



That said, 30 years experience certainly does count for something. I ride with a guy who swears he doesn't countersteer. He's good rider with a lot of experience too. When the road gets technical, and u start seeing lots of esses, is when it really becomes apparent that he is leaning and waiting for the bike, rather than just steering it. He uses a combination of leaning and throttle to steer the bike I think.

To each their own, but I'll go ahead and keep steering personally.

 

[BMK]

It's been interesting reading the responses to my question. Either I've been countersteering without realizing it or I'm lucky to be alive after 45+ years of riding experience. Whatever. I pass lots of Hardleys and squids all the time.

Hi BURNROPE,

Considering your level of riding experience , you've been countersteering for longer than I've been alive. You just didn't know the word for it. I imagine you could teach me a lot, and I hope to get a chance to ride with you one day.

When you are leaning your body to steer, you are making a slight adjustment at the bars without even realizing it. The slight steering input makes the bike lean. In fact, if you only lean your body on a bike without turning the bars slightly, the bike would be almost impossible to steer. You can see this demonstrated in the Twist of the Wrist II DVD that others have mentioned.

I've linked to a good video below and a page with a good explanation. These are probably better explanations than you'll get from any of our quick responses. If you want to watch the Twist of the Wrist II DVD, I have a copy you can borrow.

(Sorry moderators. I don't know how to embed the video. )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C848R9xWrjc

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Countersteering

 

[ST Guy]

Burn, if you really want to ask a loaded question, ask whether you countersteer through a turn, or only to initiate it.

Usually only to get to the lean angle/turn radius you want.

However, depending upon the particular bike, sometimes a bit of light maintainence pressure is needed to keep it at a given angle/turn radius if it has a tendency to stand up in a turn. Or sometimes a little presure on the outside of the bar if the bike has a tendency to fall into the turn.

But either way, countersteering gets you to where you want to be and, if necessary, other bar inputs are neede to keep you there (bike dependent).

 

[monkeythumpa]

Isn't it obvious?

If it was so obvious, people would not have so much difficulty with it.

 

[revnort]

If it was so obvious, people would not have so much difficulty with it.

Again, go ask anyone (I just asked 3 co-workers) pantomime turning a bike or motorcycle to the right. EVERYONE does it wrong. It is not obvious, and no one thinks about it. They default to how you would steer a car. In reality they all do it naturally but don't know it.

+1 on what ST guy was saying about a panic situation, when you don't know it, you can do the wrong thing.

Knowing about it helps you to bring the action forward in your mind and makes you more likely to do it when you need it.

 

[masameet]

A few days ago before this thread materialized, I was looking at some countersteering videos on YouTube. One of the riders said the Wright Brothers came up with the concept of countersteering. That's more than 100 years ago. Before they became pioneers in aviation, the Wright Brothers made their living as bicycle makers. Curious men, they would ask bicyclists how they turned. Every one of them said the same thing: I go where I turn my handlebars. What the Wright Brothers observed though was this: When a bicyclist presses one end of his handlebar, his front wheel momentarily first turns to the opposite direction before it turns in the direction that the handlebar is being pushed. That's countersteering -- the movement of the front wheel on initial input and then being corrected to go in the desired direction.

Recent rider authors, like Nick Ienatsch, have broadened countersteering to encompass a deliberate riding technique, where the purposeful and conscious pressing/pushing on the handlebars, especially at speed, determine a rider's line.

MSF -- and those of us who took MSF will remember the dreaded cone exercise -- has its students zigzag through a line of cones. MSF stresses "pressing right to go right; pressing left to go left." I don't remember if we were told we were countersteering. But that was what we were doing -- becoming acquainted with countersteering. I imagine though many of us got through MSF out of sheer terror by manhandling aka steering the handlebars. And then of course we carried that habit into riding on our own.

For me though it wasn't until a year and a half ago, when motor cop Eddie had me do the zigzag through a line of cones, that I finally understood what "press right to go right; press left to go left" really meant for me as a rider. Countersteering initiates a turn but countersteering technique completes the turn.

 

[AkatomboRR]

watch Cars the animated movie.

 

[Z3n]

It's amazing how many people stop countersteering when they need to make a mid corner steering correction.

 

[Feanor]

The hardest part is to disconnect the idea of the bars as a steering wheel, and connect the certainty that bikes turn when the bike itself leans.

That way you ingrain the idea that turning tighter and faster means leaning quicker and farther, and WHATEVER you do that makes the bike lean responsively in the direction you want to turn, is correct.

 

[NoobCorpse]

For those of you who said "countersteering is something people talk about to sound smart" / "countersteering means you're thinking too much" / etc; is your ridecraft so awesome without any need for analysis / instruction / improvement?
Understanding countersteering is a learning tool - yes, most people do it instinctively, but that doesn't mean that taking the time to understand it and apply it to your skillset is a waste of time. but, this being BARF, most of you are probably Rossi-fast and owning n00bs on hwy 9.

 

[Carlo]

I've been riding on and off road since 1966. I'm a competent rider, not the fastest. I keep seeing the term "countersteering" on this site. What is it? At speed when I want to go left, I lean left, same for right. When I'm going slow I use the handlebars more to turn. When I've been offroad there's been times when I'm trying not to screw the pooch and I'll lean the bike one way and my body the other, I consider that using body English. Explanations would be welcome."

I started riding in 1969, been riding continuously ever since.

First time I learned about the concept of "countersteering" was in a Cycle World article around 1975 or so.
I immediately went out and got on my bicycle to try it out.

On a bicycle, it works at any speed. Turn the handlebar towards the left, the bike leans to the right, and turns right. Turn the handlebar towards the right, the bike leans left and turns left.

Back when you and I started riding, the really fast guys did this without thinking about it, and they couldn't have told you what they were doing, other than "I just lean harder".

As someone else said, go out on the highway somewhere and see what happens when you try to turn the handlebar one way or the other.

Once you've become familiar with the concept, and practiced it a few times, your riding will improve dramatically. It's a major benefit in avoiding obstacles that come up suddenly, tightening a line in a curve entered too fast, and many other instances when those who don't know about countersteering will get in trouble because they're trying to lean without knowing how to.

 

[Carlo]

"Countersteering" is a term used to make one think too much. It is akin to giving something done naturally a very long name- to make it seem more or less important. Think of the word "masturbation" then think of what it really is. See what I mean. The name means nothing, it is the action that counts. So it is with "countersteering."

So go ride, and don't think too much about what you already do.

Wrong.

See my post above. As someone who remembers what it was like when there was no such word as "countersteering", I can tell you that being aware of the concept is an essential part of being able to use it effectively.

There were many times when I blew the centerline on curves before I knew what countersteering was, because I couldn't get the bike to lean over any further. This experience was very common in the old days.

Since becoming aware of the concept, I haven't blown the centerline on a curve again.

There were, of course, fast riders who did it, but not one of them could have told you what was going on. Most of us didn't have the talent to acquire that ability without being told what it was. No one before 1975 or so could have explained it.

 

[Carlo]

If you don't actively countersteer or know what it is, then I somewhat doubt your claim. You can not make a road bike go where you want it to go unless you know how to pull hard on the bars. My best advice is to find an "s" curve, and repeatedly ride through it until you can change directions quickly using deliberate force on the bars.

Sorry Russ, his claim is perfectly believable.
I learned to ride around the same time the OP did. Nobody knew what countersteering was. The word didn't even exist. (apparently still doesn't, my browser's spell checker flags the word as a misspelling)
Everybody did it, some to a greater extent than most, but nobody could explain it.
Riding instruction consisted of "here are the brakes, here's the clutch, here's the throttle, you turn just like riding a bicycle; leaning. Nobody said how you lean.
If you can ride a bicycle, you can ride a motorcycle, but that didn't teach us anything about how a two-wheeled vehicle leans.

 

[ST Guy]

It's amazing how many people stop countersteering when they need to make a mid corner steering correction.

???

You mean people use countersteering to initiate a turn and then forget about it when trying to make a mid corner correction?

Or do you mean that once leaned over, countersteering is not needed?

 

[ST Guy]

The hardest part is to disconnect the idea of the bars as a steering wheel, and connect the certainty that bikes turn when the bike itself leans.

That way you ingrain the idea that turning tighter and faster means leaning quicker and farther, and WHATEVER you do that makes the bike lean responsively in the direction you want to turn, is correct.

Technically, you're right. WHATEVER that is done to make the bike lean RESPONSIVELY will get the job done.

However.......there's only one thing that is really RESPONSIVE and that's active countersteering. Anything else is either completely inefficient or inadvertently applies countersteering forces to the bars through your body anyway.