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What mean "countersteering"?

Sorry Russ, his claim is perfectly believable.
I learned to ride around the same time the OP did. Nobody knew what countersteering was. The word didn't even exist. (apparently still doesn't, my browser's spell checker flags the word as a misspelling)
Everybody did it, some to a greater extent than most, but nobody could explain it.
Riding instruction consisted of "here are the brakes, here's the clutch, here's the throttle, you turn just like riding a bicycle; leaning. Nobody said how you lean.
If you can ride a bicycle, you can ride a motorcycle, but that didn't teach us anything about how a two-wheeled vehicle leans.

And most often they didn't even realize what they were doing.

Has anyone ever wondered why kids have such a hard time (usually) transitioning from a tricycle to a bicycle? It's not the fact that they have to learn how to balance. That part's relatively easy. It's the cruel joke we inadvertently play on them. We plop them down on a tricycle and teach them to pedal and point the wheel in the direction they want to go. Pretty soon they're good at it and many happy hours are spent riding around. Then we give them their first bicycle. But, we fail to tell them that it steers exactly the opposite from what they've been riding up to this point. I've often felt that if we were to really explain to a kid who's transitioning to a bicycle that it steers exactly opposite from the way they are used to, that they'd learn much faster.

Or, tricycles could be rigged up with a mechanism that reverses the bar inputs so that they'd then become used to the reversed steering and the transition to bicycles would become that much easier.
 
However.......there's only one thing that is really RESPONSIVE and that's active countersteering. Anything else is either completely inefficient or inadvertently applies countersteering forces to the bars through your body anyway.

^^ This. Focusing on countersteering allows the rider to dispense with a lot of other things that don't help and leaves him able to turn the bike exactly when, where and how fast he needs to.
 
Technically, you're right. WHATEVER that is done to make the bike lean RESPONSIVELY will get the job done.

However.......there's only one thing that is really RESPONSIVE and that's active countersteering. Anything else is either completely inefficient or inadvertently applies countersteering forces to the bars through your body anyway.

Totally agree ST... I was just expanding along the lines of the fact that body lean, foot pressure, looking thru the corner etc etc, are all little things that add benefit in addition to the countersteer. I just didn't want to leave those things out :)

On a side note... I can't believe that ANYONE that has ridden for some time absolutely does NOT countersteer. I'm completely convinced that if they are still riding after quite a long time, they are countersteering and just don't know it or they ignore it...

I say this because I was just riding and even at 35 mph I leaned over to the right to turn right, and I moved the bars a HAIR to the right and I STILL veered left, no matter how far to the right I leaned and tried to fight it!

I don't think its possible to steer the bike by leaning and also turning the bars in the direction you wish to turn, I couldn't do it even when I tried to hang off the bike in the direction I wanted to go!

Now granted, maybe a sportbike is different in this regard to a low slung cruiser, or chopper, or something with a 300 series rear wheel etc... I don;t know...

Try it sometime on a road with no traffic or when you have some room... leaning your body gets the bike to lean which initiates a turn in the direction you want, but the instant you turn the bars in that SAME direction, the bike pitches in the opposite direction (the way it is supposed to do)

I'm betting anyone who hasn't crashed 20 times on their bike by moving the bars incorrectly, is countersteering unconciously... even slightly... and when someone tried to explain it to them, or they start to "think" about it is when they get all screwed up...
 
And most often they didn't even realize what they were doing.

Has anyone ever wondered why kids have such a hard time (usually) transitioning from a tricycle to a bicycle? It's not the fact that they have to learn how to balance. That part's relatively easy. It's the cruel joke we inadvertently play on them. We plop them down on a tricycle and teach them to pedal and point the wheel in the direction they want to go. Pretty soon they're good at it and many happy hours are spent riding around. Then we give them their first bicycle. But, we fail to tell them that it steers exactly the opposite from what they've been riding up to this point. I've often felt that if we were to really explain to a kid who's transitioning to a bicycle that it steers exactly opposite from the way they are used to, that they'd learn much faster.

Or, tricycles could be rigged up with a mechanism that reverses the bar inputs so that they'd then become used to the reversed steering and the transition to bicycles would become that much easier.

I know a single kid does make a data set but my son 3 rides a push bike to learn the balance and has a tricycle to learn peddling. I never taught countersteering and he picked it up almost immediately. Now he rides faster than I can jog. He is 2.5 in this video and had been riding for about two weeks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhmT2chx2PM#t=0m30s
 
i think youre getting it!

0905_sbkp_01_z+ducati_hypermotard+ruben_xaus.jpg

That bike won't travel the direction the rider desires until that front tire points back into the corner. Counter steering is the first part of the equation which allows a lean angle change. Steering is the next part which stabalizes the lean and allows for the bike to actually change direction. What's this mean for the rider? Tight elbows/ arms lead to slow direction changes and missed apexes, as the tire isn't allowed to swing BACK into the corner.

Clutchslip: you most certainly can pull an inside bar and turn sharper in the direction of the bar pull. All you're doing is adding steering while taking away lean angle (which would mean, at speed you'd need to add more peg weight on the side of the bar pull).
 
However.......there's only one thing that is really RESPONSIVE and that's active countersteering. Anything else is either completely inefficient or inadvertently applies countersteering forces to the bars through your body anyway.

Actually no. A rider can change direction mid corner (tighten a line) by adding more weight to the inside and add lean angle (which would mean there was a counter steering moment). However, a rider can also Add weight inside AND pull the inside bar and add steering. Both are effective and both have their uses. One adds lean angle, the other takes away lean angle. Both add steering. As we add lean angle we sacrifice grip and change the gearing of the bike a bit. There are times and place for either, I'd argue. Most riders have never experienced changing direction by only adding steering. The one thing I prefer to NOT do, is to add any bar input the opposite direction (with my palm say) of my intended travel. F-that...

Bikes change direction the same as a car, go cart or Can-Am (tm). The front tire must point in the intended direction of travel for the vehicle to set an arc. It's merely how we get to this arc that everyone seems to argue over.
 
Actually no. A rider can change direction mid corner (tighten a line) by adding more weight to the inside and add lean angle (which would mean there was a counter steering moment). However, a rider can also Add weight inside AND pull the inside bar and add steering. Both are effective and both have their uses. One adds lean angle, the other takes away lean angle. Both add steering. As we add lean angle we sacrifice grip and change the gearing of the bike a bit. There are times and place for either, I'd argue. Most riders have never experienced changing direction by only adding steering. The one thing I prefer to NOT do, is to add any bar input the opposite direction (with my palm say) of my intended travel. F-that...

Bikes change direction the same as a car, go cart or Can-Am (tm). The front tire must point in the intended direction of travel for the vehicle to set an arc. It's merely how we get to this arc that everyone seems to argue over.

I think I know what you are talking about because of an experience I had in my driving youth...

The wife used to work in South San Francisco in this huge industrial office park that had a very wide main road that looped all around the complex (It was wide for the large trucks that had to negotiate them) and ti was normally empty at the end of the day and the surface nearly perfect.

I used to get to her pickup point early so i could do "laps" in my car before she got there (lots of fun, no police)

There was this one corner that constantly gave me trouble and it was a sharpish, left hand sweeper slightly off camber, and it would always bug me because unless I tiptpoed around it (relatively speaking) I would spin the car as it unloaded the suspension in the off camber downhil crest.

One day when I was lapping happily, right before said corner, a rabbit ran across the road and I twitched the wheel trying to avoid hitting it, and the rear of the car stepped out slightly almost in an instant just as I was cresting... I was certain I was going to spin out, but to my surprised, the car literally floated around the corner with the rear slightly hanging out and it is impossible to describe, but it felt so solid, locked in and stable it was unreal... the car never altered its lean angle on the suspension or the longitudinal angle relative to the road... It was drifting, before drifting was popular... and it the fastest I had ever taken that corner.

Later, I was talking to my brother in laws brother who raced Datsun 510s in SCCA and he said I experience the second way to corner a car, not to ease slowly into the steady state, fighting the ragged edge of traction, but to "set the car up" angle and suspension loading before the car even got to the corner and ride that setting all the way thru.

It sounds almost like initiating the lean on the bike with the coutersteer is kind of like "setting the car up" before the corner, technique... and once in the corner, either on the bike or in the car, you used other means of control (feathering throttle, body english etc for bikes, and easing off the steering and throttle for a car) to make small midcorner adjustments...

THe funny thing is that I was never able to recreate that corner that way ever again, because it required a sharp jerk of the wheel that felt like momentarily upsetting the suspension in order to get it quickly settled into its groove... probably what people who are nervous about countersteering feel on the bike...

Damn rabbits...
 
David, good story! Ross Bently talks about that near same thing from a certain driver who was kicking all the other drivers asses in a certain section/ corner of the track...turns out it was Mario Andretti and his quick direction change technique, similar to the one your described.
 
David, good story! Ross Bently talks about that near same thing from a certain driver who was kicking all the other drivers asses in a certain section/ corner of the track...turns out it was Mario Andretti and his quick direction change technique, similar to the one your described.

:thumbup

When Mario Andretti writes about racing, it is SO enjoyable to read because he never gets "technical" he is so down to earth writing things like "I could always tell when someone was a novice at racing because he would go to slow in the straights and too fast in the corners..." :laughing and, "Doing fast laps is a very violent affair, it just doesn't look violent" and my personal favorite... "To be fast on the track, you must be slow in the cockpit" :)
 
Sorry Russ, his claim is perfectly believable.
I learned to ride around the same time the OP did. Nobody knew what countersteering was....

OK you guys are starting to bug me. This is not a technique you do instinctively and are doing it all these years without knowing it. It's a technique to FORCE the bike to change directions rapidly. You are pulling and pushing extremely HARD to get the bike to transition, from left to right or right to left. Again, it's not a gentle force applied to the bars as you corner, it's the forceful steering of the bike to make fast transitions.
It's very basic, you are steering the bike, flopping it down to full lean angle or making a full speed left to right transition by force. You are not following the bar movement with a little pressure, you are pushing/pulling hard to MAKE the bike do what you want it to do. It's not a subtle touch that we do instinctively, that's not what I am talking about.
The guys that know how to steer a bike, get it, others, even long time riders, may have no clue, because at this point they are not applying enough force other than to gently coax the bike where they want it to go. If you have the technique, it's apparent because you are pulling and pushing pretty hard.
 
OK you guys are starting to bug me. This is not a technique you do instinctively and are doing it all these years without knowing it. It's a technique to FORCE the bike to change directions rapidly. You are pulling and pushing extremely HARD to get the bike to transition, from left to right or right to left. Again, it's not a gentle force applied to the bars as you corner, it's the forceful steering of the bike to make fast transitions.
It's very basic, you are steering the bike, flopping it down to full lean angle or making a full speed left to right transition by force. You are not following the bar movement with a little pressure, you are pushing/pulling hard to MAKE the bike do what you want it to do. It's not a subtle touch that we do instinctively, that's not what I am talking about.
The guys that know how to steer a bike, get it, others, even long time riders, may have no clue, because at this point they are not applying enough force other than to gently coax the bike where they want it to go. If you have the technique, it's apparent because you are pulling and pushing pretty hard.

What really bugs me a LOT is in science fiction movies when starfighters in space bank to turn :|
 
I know, they should bank upside down so the blood stays in the pilots head...everybody knows that!

No no, you don't want to do that in space or in the atmosphere... In space, you have to turn by just rotating to the left or right depending on whether you want to make the kill a logical one by pooling the blood on the left side of your head, or if you want a really artistic kill with all the blood forced to the right side of your body!
 
Looks like you started just a few years after I did and way back then (when we chipped spear points out of flint) I somehow "learned" to "pull right go left" and it has been a hard habit to overcome. Oddly enough...I think it may actually work better when I do what they say I should be doing...push left go left &c &c &c... Ain't easy to overcome old habits, tho...

The pulling action makes you grip harder. Pushing means you can be lighter on the bars. :)
 
OK you guys are starting to bug me. This is not a technique you do instinctively and are doing it all these years without knowing it. It's a technique to FORCE the bike to change directions rapidly. You are pulling and pushing extremely HARD to get the bike to transition, from left to right or right to left. Again, it's not a gentle force applied to the bars as you corner, it's the forceful steering of the bike to make fast transitions.
It's very basic, you are steering the bike, flopping it down to full lean angle or making a full speed left to right transition by force. You are not following the bar movement with a little pressure, you are pushing/pulling hard to MAKE the bike do what you want it to do. It's not a subtle touch that we do instinctively, that's not what I am talking about.
The guys that know how to steer a bike, get it, others, even long time riders, may have no clue, because at this point they are not applying enough force other than to gently coax the bike where they want it to go. If you have the technique, it's apparent because you are pulling and pushing pretty hard.

you are confusing things.

countersteering is how you steer a bike. period. the "emphasis" on proper countersteering is what you're talking about.

the human brain is no dummy... when you were first riding your bicycle, your brain moved the handlebars like a tricycle, turning into the turn... this, of course, didn't work, and your wonderful brain said, "oh, well lets try this" and BINGO you didn't die.

plenty of people taught themselves how to quickly make a bike change direction without "beginner's" incessant study of the methods.

When I was learning as a small young puppy no one said OMGZ COUNTERSTEERING, i just learned... instruction can/did hone those skills

this "pushing hard" is a relative term.... what you may think is "fighting the bike and pressing so hard to turn" is what I'd consider regular old abrupt turning
 
When making a very quick turn, like someone pulls out of a driveway right in front of you, besides the push on one side of the bar, a strong pull on the other end of the bar will get much faster results. Gotta be careful with that, though.

Also, I have long looked at countersteering as simply pushing the contact patch out from underneath you. Push on the left end of the bar, the wheel starts to point to the right which moves the contact patch to the right as well and out from underneath you, and then the bike nicely settles into a left turn.
 
That bike won't travel the direction the rider desires until that front tire points back into the corner. Counter steering is the first part of the equation which allows a lean angle change. Steering is the next part which stabalizes the lean and allows for the bike to actually change direction. What's this mean for the rider? Tight elbows/ arms lead to slow direction changes and missed apexes, as the tire isn't allowed to swing BACK into the corner.

Clutchslip: you most certainly can pull an inside bar and turn sharper in the direction of the bar pull. All you're doing is adding steering while taking away lean angle (which would mean, at speed you'd need to add more peg weight on the side of the bar pull).
You could have just posted a link to your other thread, you know? Tire points - this way <>^V><
I have NO idea why you singled me out. I said nothing different from anyone else. If you want to argue against countersteer, Keith Code is your man. However, I will play, for the heck of it.

We have video/scientific evidence that shows the front wheel of a two-wheeled vehicle breaks to the opposite direction before heading in the direction of the turn. If you don't think you can go completely around a corner with the front wheel crank opposite of the corner direction, then you have not ridden on a flat track fast enough. Hell, you can go "straight" with the front wheel cranked sideways once in a full slide. Then, there is us going into turn one at Thunderhill at full speed: You with no ability to countersteer and me with no ability to steer toward the corner. The first one to turn two wins and solves all motorcycle steer problems for-ever.

Bikes change direction the same as a car, go cart or Can-Am (tm). The front tire must point in the intended direction of travel for the vehicle to set an arc. It's merely how we get to this arc that everyone seems to argue over.
So your car is hinged in the middle and leans into corners? :shocker

Just for informative appendage: I have argued against Mr. Code about being able to turn without using the handlebars. (I think it's on record, here.) :twofinger
 
gyroscopic precession.

you input force on the spinning wheel. the wheel applies with a reactive force perpendicular to the input.

push bars to right, which rotates the wheel to the right along the "vertical" axis. wheel reacts by pushing the bike over to the left on the perpendicular "horizontal" axis, initiating your lean.
 
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Clutchslip, wasn't singling you out for any reason other than your post represented the best segue into my rant...nothing personal in the least man!
 
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