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World swimming bans transgender women from competing

ScarySpikes said:
In quite a few sports, where men's records have been threatened by women competing, rules have been put in place to sandbag the women. Caster Semenya is a good example, arbitrarily limiting her from competing at her natural testosterone levels. Another example is all marathon running, where women are now not allowed to have male pace setters, even though men are allowed that. Fair bet that if and when a trans man completes and wins in a marathon, they'll find a way to enact a ban.

In figure skating, 1902, a woman competed in the Olympics and won the silver medal in figure skating, she was the first woman in the, at the time male dominated but open to all sport. In 1903, women were banned from the sport, and in 1905, they segregated the sport to men's and women's competitions. Do you think that if a trans man started winning in male figure skating, they wouldn't find a way to ban?

You might not regard it as 'truly physical' but shooting is another sport where women started threatening men's dominance in what were open leagues, then were relegated to a women's only league. In Barcelona, 1992, a woman won the gold medal in skeet shooting. In 1996, women were banned, in 2000, They created a separate women's league that had fewer targets. Again, fair bet that if/when a trans man starts beating out cis men in shooting, they will find a way to ban them.
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All of those examples are not the norm. All of those examples are the severe outliers.

Again, identity isn’t biology, and transism (probably not the right word but I honestly don’t know what is), is no where near then what it is today.
 
"Blacks strong do sports" is effectively a though terminating cliche. It's one aspect of the overall Convo used by people, wittingly or unwittingly to essentialize the behaviors of groups of people as inherent to their being. It's low key identity politics.

The systemic breeding and how it affect a person's physiology is true up to a point. Where do you draw the line and say the economic, material, and cultural conditions effectively self select black Americans to have predominace in pro sports?
 
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msethhunter said:
All of those examples are not the norm. All of those examples are the severe outliers.

Again, identity isn’t biology, and transism (probably not the right word but I honestly don’t know what is), is no where near then what it is today.
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Transgender, non binary, ect people existed throughout all of human history. We just now have the language to describe nature and a better understanding of biology.

In short human physiology is fucking complicated and we're just barely starting to understand it.
 
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HappyHighwayman said:
Why would you think that? They never have before. You think the Olympic committee gives a F about athletes?

They didn't start the organization to benefit the athletes.
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Because athletes/ex athletes are getting far more vocal?

It's 2022, not 1982.

You know, a time when even the NCAA allows athletes to profit from their name, image and likeness?
 
Karbon said:
"Blacks strong do sports" is effectively a though terminating cliche. It's one aspect of the overall Convo used by people, wittingly or unwittingly to essentialize the behaviors of groups of people as inherent to their being. It's low key identity politics.

The systemic breeding and how it affect a person's physiology is true up to a point. Where do you draw the line and say the economic, material, and cultural conditions effectively self select black Americans to have predominace in pro sports?
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We’re all animals, susceptible to genetic selection by means of breeding. There’s reasons why certain breeds of animals are better at certain things than others are. That’s how nature works, and it works over thousands of years. I’d imagine that at one point in history, we were all pretty hard to distinguish from each other. But over thousands of years, through natural means, not man made “selective breeding”, skins got darker, muscles changed, natural abilities became enhanced through natural changes.

Live in the desert over generations, you’ll probably become skinny.
Live in the jungle over generations, your feet will likely change to look more like hands.
Live in the mountains over generations, you’ll likely become more “husky” to deal with cold.

Natural Selection was taught in Jr High if memory serves correct.
 
Karbon said:
Transgender, non binary, ect people existed throughout all of human history. We just now have the language to describe nature and a better understanding of biology.

In short human physiology is fucking complicated and we're just barely starting to understand it.
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It’s become more prolific recently though.
 
msethhunter said:
For anyone who says “there’s no evidence”, you’re not paying attention. There’s plenty of examples available now that show otherwise. Female weight lifters who were average men that now dominate because they’re women, male fighter’s who now dominate because they’re women, and now swimmers. By dominate I am speaking to competing at the top level, not necessarily kicking everyone’s ass in their chose sport.

There is a good reason why we don’t see the same push for trans men competing in mens sports having an unfair advantage. Because they don’t, and they never will.
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The problem is your evidence is bullshit.

The trans woman weight lifter you are talking about is Laurel Hubbard. She competed in the Tokyo Olympics, and failed all 3 of her first lifts, removing her from contention for any medals. She did not dominate.
Trans women are not dominating in fighting either. We talked about Fallon Fox and Alana Mclaughlin, the only trans women who have competed in professional MMA. They are not dominating the sport.
Lea Thomas is the only person you referred to who has been really successful. She competes at the highest levels of women's swimming, but she also competed at the highest levels of men's swimming prior to transitioning, and there are a lot more people who compete in men's swimming. When you have to lie about a trans woman's record by only looking at it when she was on HRT but competing against men, and when you have to change the definition of 'dominating' to 'are competing with', it kind of shows that your argument, your 'evidence', is bullshit.
 
ScarySpikes said:
The problem is your evidence is bullshit.

The trans woman weight lifter you are talking about is Laurel Hubbard. She competed in the Tokyo Olympics, and failed all 3 of her first lifts, removing her from contention for any medals. She did not dominate.
Trans women are not dominating in fighting either. We talked about Fallon Fox and Alana Mclaughlin, the only trans women who have competed in professional MMA. They are not dominating the sport.
Lea Thomas is the only person you referred to who has been really successful. She competes at the highest levels of women's swimming, but she also competed at the highest levels of men's swimming prior to transitioning, and there are a lot more people who compete in men's swimming. When you have to lie about a trans woman's record by only looking at it when she was on HRT but competing against men, and when you have to change the definition of 'dominating' to 'are competing with', it kind of shows that your argument, your 'evidence', is bullshit.
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:facepalm
 
ScarySpikes said:
In quite a few sports, where men's records have been threatened by women competing, rules have been put in place to sandbag the women. Caster Semenya is a good example, arbitrarily limiting her from competing at her natural testosterone levels. Another example is all marathon running, where women are now not allowed to have male pace setters, even though men are allowed that. Fair bet that if and when a trans man completes and wins in a marathon, they'll find a way to enact a ban.

In figure skating, 1902, a woman competed in the Olympics and won the silver medal in figure skating, she was the first woman in the, at the time male dominated but open to all sport. In 1903, women were banned from the sport, and in 1905, they segregated the sport to men's and women's competitions. Do you think that if a trans man started winning in male figure skating, they wouldn't find a way to ban?

You might not regard it as 'truly physical' but shooting is another sport where women started threatening men's dominance in what were open leagues, then were relegated to a women's only league. In Barcelona, 1992, a woman won the gold medal in skeet shooting. In 1996, women were banned, in 2000, They created a separate women's league that had fewer targets. Again, fair bet that if/when a trans man starts beating out cis men in shooting, they will find a way to ban them.
Click to expand...


figure skating is a performative sport, its not the same thing. could a women beat a man in dancing? sure, because the criteria for judging is aesthetic. it would be easier for a woman top "beat" a man in ballet by doing the same performance, because the criteria for judging involves aesthetics of lightness, delicateness. it requires true physical complexity, but its not a "sport" in the sense we are talking about, where direct physical competition is taking place.

women can compete with men in "sports" like shooting, golf, bowling, which really arent sports, but games of tool usage proficiency.

you say if and WHEN, as if its some forgone conclusion, even tho its just not.

caster is an extremely poor example, because she's truly intersex, a situation so rare as to warrant no blanket rules, but a case by case basis. and since she continued to desire to compete amongst women, not analogous to what im saying anyway. (im generally in favor of letting trans women participate personally)

theres's a reason trans males are making headlines, they just have no chance.
 
ScarySpikes said:
The problem is your evidence is bullshit.

The trans woman weight lifter you are talking about is Laurel Hubbard. She competed in the Tokyo Olympics, and failed all 3 of her first lifts, removing her from contention for any medals. She did not dominate.
Trans women are not dominating in fighting either. We talked about Fallon Fox and Alana Mclaughlin, the only trans women who have competed in professional MMA. They are not dominating the sport.
Lea Thomas is the only person you referred to who has been really successful. She competes at the highest levels of women's swimming, but she also competed at the highest levels of men's swimming prior to transitioning, and there are a lot more people who compete in men's swimming. When you have to lie about a trans woman's record by only looking at it when she was on HRT but competing against men, and when you have to change the definition of 'dominating' to 'are competing with', it kind of shows that your argument, your 'evidence', is bullshit.
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Must have missed the “competing at the top level in their chosen sport.”

Glossed over the “this isn’t an issue with women competing in mens sports” except for the extreme outliers.

I’ve been respectful to your POV, I expect the same in return.

You can’t dominate a sport without being at the top level. Anyone below that would not be. That’s not changing the definition, that’s stating a fact. They had to dominate the lower levels to get to the top.
 
msethhunter said:
We’re all animals, susceptible to genetic selection by means of breeding. There’s reasons why certain breeds of animals are better at certain things than others are. That’s how nature works, and it works over thousands of years. I’d imagine that at one point in history, we were all pretty hard to distinguish from each other. But over thousands of years, through natural means, not man made “selective breeding”, skins got darker, muscles changed, natural abilities became enhanced through natural changes.

Live in the desert over generations, you’ll probably become skinny.
Live in the jungle over generations, your feet will likely change to look more like hands.
Live in the mountains over generations, you’ll likely become more “husky” to deal with cold.

Natural Selection was taught in Jr High if memory serves correct.
Click to expand...

No one arguing the fact that genetics affects physiology.

But when talking about sports (especially at the pro level) there's a layer of cultural, material and economic, issues that has to be addressed as well.
 
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msethhunter said:
Must have missed the “competing at the top level in their chosen sport.”

Glossed over the “this isn’t an issue with women competing in mens sports” except for the extreme outliers.

I’ve been respectful to your POV, I expect the same in return.

You can’t dominate a sport without being at the top level. Anyone below that would not be. That’s not changing the definition, that’s stating a fact. They had to dominate the lower levels to get to the top.
Click to expand...


I didn't miss the 'competing at the top level in their chosen sport', I just pointed out that it's bullshit.

I've also talked about how men react when women have come into a sports that are or were traditionally dominated by men. I only gave a few examples. I could also talk about how during WW1, when most of the men were out fighting, women's soccer became really popular in England. When they continued to be popular, and beat out men's teams in drawing crowds, women soccer was banned, and it only was brought back in the 1950's. The idea that it's never an issue is not true. A lot of sports were initially segregated in order to protect men's egos.

'You can't dominate a sport without being at the top level', sure, but you can be at the top level of a sport without dominating. Being realistic, you have only one example of a trans woman really competing at the top level, in Lea Thomas, and prior to transitioning, she competed at the top level in the men's division. Fallon Fox never fought top level women MMA fighters, so far Alana Mclaughlin hasn't either. Laurel Hubbard might have gotten to the Olympics, but she was never really thought to be a top level contender, it was more that New Zealand doesn't have a very being presence in international weight lifting competition.

Are you saying that it's a problem, to you, if any trans women are capable of competing at the top level of a sport?


kevin 714 said:
figure skating is a performative sport, its not the same thing. could a women beat a man in dancing? sure, because the criteria for judging is aesthetic. it would be easier for a woman top "beat" a man in ballet by doing the same performance, because the criteria for judging involves aesthetics of lightness, delicateness. it requires true physical complexity, but its not a "sport" in the sense we are talking about, where direct physical competition is taking place.

women can compete with men in "sports" like shooting, golf, bowling, which really arent sports, but games of tool usage proficiency.

you say if and WHEN, as if its some forgone conclusion, even tho its just not.

caster is an extremely poor example, because she's truly intersex, a situation so rare as to warrant no blanket rules, but a case by case basis. and since she continued to desire to compete amongst women, not analogous to what im saying anyway. (im generally in favor of letting trans women participate personally)

theres's a reason trans males are making headlines, they just have no chance.
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Hard disagree on figure skating. It's a very physically demanding sport.

Shooting, yea, it's not that physical, but women do have an advantage because they tend to hold their body weight a little bit lower, thus, lower center of gravity, and a more stable stance when shooting.

I do think that, eventually, a trans man is probably going to beat cis men in some competitive sport, and I think that people will freak out about it when we see that.

For Caster, I include her example for a specific reason. Yes, she is intersex. It's not nearly as rare as you are saying, about 1.7% of people are intersex so at least currently it's more common than people being openly trans. Many athletes are intersex. Could you ever imagine rules being put in place to prevent Michael Phelps or Usain Bolt from competing at their max? I included her because a big part of my point is that in a lot of cases, separating women's and men's sports isn't done to give women a chance to compete, it's done to protect men's egos from the possibility of being beaten by a woman.
 
ScarySpikes said:
Hard disagree on figure skating. It's a very physically demanding sport.

Shooting, yea, it's not that physical, but women do have an advantage because they tend to hold their body weight a little bit lower, thus, lower center of gravity, and a more stable stance when shooting.

I do think that, eventually, a trans man is probably going to beat cis men in some competitive sport, and I think that people will freak out about it when we see that.

For Caster, I include her example for a specific reason. Yes, she is intersex. It's not nearly as rare as you are saying, about 1.7% of people are intersex so at least currently it's more common than people being openly trans. Many athletes are intersex. Could you ever imagine rules being put in place to prevent Michael Phelps or Usain Bolt from competing at their max? I included her because a big part of my point is that in a lot of cases, separating women's and men's sports isn't done to give women a chance to compete, it's done to protect men's egos from the possibility of being beaten by a woman.
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there's no question figure skating requires a unbelievable amount of athleticism


when i mean rare, I dont mean in the general populace. I mean rare as in an intersex person, competing in sport, AND competing in sport well. THAT is quite rare.

thats the crux of my actual point in trans athletes, and my general support of it. blanket rules are not needed, because trans people are a low % of population, for which those who play sports make up a low % of that population, for which those that excel are an even smaller %. its just not enough athletes
 
kevin 714 said:
there's no question figure skating requires a unbelievable amount of athleticism


when i mean rare, I dont mean in the general populace. I mean rare as in an intersex person, competing in sport, AND competing in sport well. THAT is quite rare.

thats the crux of my actual point in trans athletes, and my general support of it. blanket rules are not needed, because trans people are a low % of population, for which those who play sports make up a low % of that population, for which those that excel are an even smaller %. its just not enough athletes
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Overall, I agree, though from my understanding, intersex people competing in sports isn't as vanishingly rare as you are saying. It's much more common than trans people competing in sports, for example.
 
ScarySpikes said:
Overall, I agree, though from my understanding, intersex people competing in sports isn't as vanishingly rare as you are saying. It's much more common than trans people competing in sports, for example.
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my guess is intersex is more common than realized (tho still low), I mean caster didnt even know herself.
 
For what it's worth, thigh muscles are the one area where women are physically closest to men.
 
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