World swimming bans transgender women from competing

[ScarySpikes]

Don't find that to be a really good defense and conclusion you already know.

Sports are ingrained into American culture. And 9/10, men's sports are more entertaining. I don't give a fuck about sports ball games but football, baseball and basketball, women have no way to compete.

I spent a lot of time recently watching Curling competition. Men, women, and mixed. I'm in the minority of people that think watching curling is fun.

It's not a misogynistic thing to say that the majority of men sports are more enjoyable than sports women compete in.

Last week's UFC fight card at home, I took a break to take a shower because I bet that the woman's prelim fight would probably go to a boring decision and I won't be missing much when I get back. There's a lot of great women's fights but usually those are good times to take a bathroom break.

Tennis is another one that excites me, men or women.

Women's basketball? Yawn... I tried because one of the best players in the league was a home town hero but still boring.

A lot of the winter Olympics? Most events, men or women are equally exciting. Picabo Street is one of my favorite racers.

Isn't this basically confirming exactly what Tyler said? Maybe the events are better because they are just much better funded from recruitment to training to facilities to media advertisement to coverage of the event itself. Maybe that's because there is something inherently more interesting about men going at it than women. It doesn't really matter. It's still pretty obviously true that a lot of people don't really care about women's sports.

 

[afm199]

Isn't this basically confirming exactly what Tyler said? Maybe the events are better because they are just much better funded from recruitment to training to facilities to media advertisement to coverage of the event itself. Maybe that's because there is something inherently more interesting about men going at it than women. It doesn't really matter. It's still pretty obviously true that a lot of people don't really care about women's sports.

A lot of people don't care about bowling, table tennis, golf, football, applied mathematics, aerodynamics, and body odor.

When gender became politicized and sport became a political playground, we all lost out.

 

[Eldritch]

Look, if I'm wrong and there's a groundswell of a majority of men taking interest in women's sports in the next two years, I will literally eat the dead skin off my own feet.

I mean, I seem to recall we have women's sports threads in here semi-regularly, usually about MMA fighters (Gina Carano, Cris Cyborg, Ronda Rousey, etc.) and I can recall some about at least one of the Williams sisters, although I don't follow tennis, so I don't remember it that well. I think there was a Michelle Wie at one point when she was doing good in golf, but again, I don't remember much, because I don't care about golf.

Seems to me that people are interested in women athletes as competitors, mainly just no one gives a shit about women's team sports.

 

[cfives]

It's not an assumption, its an observation. I've never seen a thread about women's sports in the KS unless it was to argue over transgender competitors or to sexualize the athletes.

Dude, you were the second person to post in the following thread about a historic moment in sports that women headlined, about a month and a half ago.

https://bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=554552

 

[littlebeast]

This is the only time that men care about women's sports. It makes me wonder if its actually the sport they care about, or something else.

personally, i think this is an overstatement, and an unfortunate diversion from the topic.

irrespective of the interest in women’s sports, trans people face incredible hurdles from every direction - both in their private lives, and their public lives. trying to maintain some semblance of the life they aspire to can be incredibly challenging - and possibly more so for athletes (no one wakes up in the morning thinking - oh hey, i don’t have enough controversy in my life - what can i do to increase that?). similarly - no one wakes up in the morning and thinks - oh hey, if i transition to a woman, i can kick some serious ass in my sport . too often, from the outside looking in we think along the lines of ‘you made your bed, now you have to lay in it’. that’s cold, hard hearted, and a total cop out (avoidance of putting in the effort to deal with a situation that IMO is not beyond our ability to solve).

i do agree with you though that something else is possibly going on. best case - a desire for an easy solution (make a discomforting issue go away quietly without having to really engage on it). and worst case, it smells an awful lot like transphobia.

 

[Eldritch]

personally, i think this is an overstatement, and an unfortunate diversion from the topic.

irrespective of the interest in women’s sports, trans people face incredible hurdles from every direction - both in their private lives, and their public lives. trying to maintain some semblance of the life they aspire to can be incredibly challenging - and possibly more so for athletes (no one wakes up in the morning thinking - oh hey, i don’t have enough controversy in my life - what can i do to increase that?). similarly - no one wakes up in the morning and thinks - oh hey, if i transition to a woman, i can kick some serious ass in my sport . too often, from the outside looking in we think along the lines of ‘you made your bed, now you have to lay in it’. that’s cold, hard hearted, and a total cop out (avoidance of putting in the effort to deal with a situation that IMO is not beyond our ability to solve).

i do agree with you though that something else is possibly going on. best case - a desire for an easy solution (make a discomforting issue go away quietly without having to really engage on it). and worst case, it smells an awful lot like transphobia.

I mean, they go to crazy lengths in some of these sports to regulate the shit out of the natural hormones cisgendered people produce in their bodies. Calling an application of the same kinds of scrutiny transphobic is just silly. The minute an athlete begins to show significant changes in how they appear physically or when they show wild performance beyond what is typically expected, the fans start coming screaming out of the woodwork for PED testing, etc.

It isn't default transphobic that a bunch of people are having the same response reaction to persons who are required to take artificial hormone treatments as a matter of their just regular existing.

Most the people really wrapped up in this stuff are committed to the, "Olympian Ideal," this notion of being able to compete in sport with physically like people who were born with whatever they have and that is it, you compete from there.

It isn't a particularly realistic notion in my opinion, as economic resources etc can have a huge impact on that, "natural," performance, but neither is it based on some kind of attack or fear around transpersons.

 

[ScarySpikes]

personally, i think this is an overstatement, and an unfortunate diversion from the topic.

irrespective of the interest in women’s sports, trans people face incredible hurdles from every direction - both in their private lives, and their public lives. trying to maintain some semblance of the life they aspire to can be incredibly challenging - and possibly more so for athletes (no one wakes up in the morning thinking - oh hey, i don’t have enough controversy in my life - what can i do to increase that?). similarly - no one wakes up in the morning and thinks - oh hey, if i transition to a woman, i can kick some serious ass in my sport . too often, from the outside looking in we think along the lines of ‘you made your bed, now you have to lay in it’. that’s cold, hard hearted, and a total cop out (avoidance of putting in the effort to deal with a situation that IMO is not beyond our ability to solve).

i do agree with you though that something else is possibly going on. best case - a desire for an easy solution (make a discomforting issue go away quietly without having to really engage on it). and worst case, it smells an awful lot like transphobia.

Only slight disagreement here, the easy solution would have been to just follow the same standard the IOC uses. This is the easiest solution that lets them ban Lia Thomas. I don't believe that the timing of this after she did well in an NCAA tournament is accidental, and you are correct, it does smell an awful lot like transphobia.

I mean, they go to crazy lengths in some of these sports to regulate the shit out of the natural hormones cisgendered people produce in their bodies. Calling an application of the same kinds of scrutiny transphobic is just silly. The minute an athlete begins to show significant changes in how they appear physically or when they show wild performance beyond what is typically expected, the fans start coming screaming out of the woodwork for PED testing, etc.

Minor correction, they are regulating the shit out of natural hormones of cis women. As far as I know, there haven't been any regulations cis men who have insanely high testosterone levels.

It isn't default transphobic that a bunch of people are having the same response reaction to persons who are required to take artificial hormone treatments as a matter of their just regular existing.

Most the people really wrapped up in this stuff are committed to the, "Olympian Ideal," this notion of being able to compete in sport with physically like people who were born with whatever they have and that is it, you compete from there.

It isn't a particularly realistic notion in my opinion, as economic resources etc can have a huge impact on that, "natural," performance, but neither is it based on some kind of attack or fear around transpersons.

This is true. As a layperson, it's not default transphobic to have weird ideas about 'natural' performance. Most people don't know all that much about trans folks, they don't really know what HRT does, and they just have a gut reaction to the issue. It can be difficult to break people out of those default assumptions even though they didn't arrive at them through hate.

However, that is an excuse for individuals. An organization making a decision after apparently studying the issue in detail doesn't have that leeway.

 

[Climber]

Only slight disagreement here, the easy solution would have been to just follow the same standard the IOC uses. This is the easiest solution that lets them ban Lia Thomas. I don't believe that the timing of this after she did well in an NCAA tournament is accidental, and you are correct, it does smell an awful lot like transphobia..

You speak like somebody who never really got to an advanced level of sports.

This was all about an unfair advantage and pretty much nothing to do with transphobia.

You're trying to apply a label that simply doesn't apply. I'm not saying that transphobia doesn't exist, there are plenty of bigots out there driven on by their religious and political leaders but sports bodies are governed by very different criteria.

 

[Eldritch]

Minor correction, they are regulating the shit out of natural hormones of cis women. As far as I know, there haven't been any regulations cis men who have insanely high testosterone levels.


This is true. As a layperson, it's not default transphobic to have weird ideas about 'natural' performance. Most people don't know all that much about trans folks, they don't really know what HRT does, and they just have a gut reaction to the issue. It can be difficult to break people out of those default assumptions even though they didn't arrive at them through hate.

However, that is an excuse for individuals. An organization making a decision after apparently studying the issue in detail doesn't have that leeway.

Why not?

 

[ScarySpikes]

Why not?

You speak like somebody who never really got to an advanced level of sports.

This was all about an unfair advantage and pretty much nothing to do with transphobia.

You're trying to apply a label that simply doesn't apply. I'm not saying that transphobia doesn't exist, there are plenty of bigots out there driven on by their religious and political leaders but sports bodies are governed by very different criteria.

I don't need to be a pro level athlete to read scientific studies and current law on treatment for trans people, The credible studies I've found show that real world performance differences between cis and trans woman athletes, after a sufficient length of time on HRT, are either nonexistent or very, very minor, and that athletic ability within cis women has a much wider variation so it's not like we are talking about an absolutely equal playing field anyway. There is absolutely no evidence of trans people being overrepresented in sports generally, nor is there evidence that trans people are overrepresented at the top level of sports specifically. Basically, an understanding of the best science currently available, and an understanding that the legality and access that trans people face both within the US and abroad often make starting transition by age 12 flat out impossible or extremely unlikely.

I don't expect everyday people to be familiar with those studies. I understand that the science does not match with most people's gut reactions and beliefs about the issue, and I think that people can hold those beliefs without actively being transphobic.

I do expect that the governing body of a sports organization to be familiar with those studies. I do expect them to make themselves familiar with the state of laws on treatment of trans people internationally, so, when they make a decision that don't make sense given the science and the legal issues, such as this decision, it smells of transphobia.

 

[James]

 

[Climber]

I don't need to be a pro level athlete to read scientific studies and current law on treatment for trans people, The credible studies I've found show that real world performance differences between cis and trans woman athletes, after a sufficient length of time on HRT, are either nonexistent or very, very minor, and that athletic ability within cis women has a much wider variation so it's not like we are talking about an absolutely equal playing field anyway. There is absolutely no evidence of trans people being overrepresented in sports generally, nor is there evidence that trans people are overrepresented at the top level of sports specifically. Basically, an understanding of the best science currently available, and an understanding that the legality and access that trans people face both within the US and abroad often make starting transition by age 12 flat out impossible or extremely unlikely.

I don't expect everyday people to be familiar with those studies. I understand that the science does not match with most people's gut reactions and beliefs about the issue, and I think that people can hold those beliefs without actively being transphobic.

I do expect that the governing body of a sports organization to be familiar with those studies. I do expect them to make themselves familiar with the state of laws on treatment of trans people internationally, so, when they make a decision that don't make sense given the science and the legal issues, such as this decision, it smells of transphobia.

Given your track record on this subject, I would guess that you gravitate towards studies which support your bias on the subject.

The governing body had access to much better information than you are likely to have seen and likely less biased. They examined the data, listened to the experts on the various subjects and gave their ruling.

You want to apply the label of transphobia (how many times have you used that label in this thread?) because their findings didn't match what you wanted them to do.

Be careful of not overusing a label when it doesn't really apply, it will get worned out and ignored in the future if overused in invalid cases.

 

[Dubbington]

Fair. IMO.

100% agree.

Not fair to women when a man sucks and is not competitive and then transitions and dominates womens sports. Lia Thomas, previously a man, has set at least 6 records since competing as a woman.

Sounds like an eventual transgender category needs to be established.

I do like the rule that if you transitioned before age 12 it's ok to compete. The to me removes possible advantages.

 

[Eldritch]

I don't need to be a pro level athlete to read scientific studies and current law on treatment for trans people, The credible studies I've found show that real world performance differences between cis and trans woman athletes, after a sufficient length of time on HRT, are either nonexistent or very, very minor, and that athletic ability within cis women has a much wider variation so it's not like we are talking about an absolutely equal playing field anyway. There is absolutely no evidence of trans people being overrepresented in sports generally, nor is there evidence that trans people are overrepresented at the top level of sports specifically. Basically, an understanding of the best science currently available, and an understanding that the legality and access that trans people face both within the US and abroad often make starting transition by age 12 flat out impossible or extremely unlikely.

I don't expect everyday people to be familiar with those studies. I understand that the science does not match with most people's gut reactions and beliefs about the issue, and I think that people can hold those beliefs without actively being transphobic.

I do expect that the governing body of a sports organization to be familiar with those studies. I do expect them to make themselves familiar with the state of laws on treatment of trans people internationally, so, when they make a decision that don't make sense given the science and the legal issues, such as this decision, it smells of transphobia.

Your assumptions about science seem pretty wildly biased considering your response to what really should be called the, "Lia Thomas," rule. FINA seems to be taking the most inclusive approach possible by allowing the athletes who transitioned prior to age 12 to compete as well as their promise to develop a competitive category for transwomen to compete independently.

To say there is no inherent physical advantage for transwomen who spent their puberty physical changes as men is just silly. While testosterone suppression will cause a decline in performance for said athletes, skeletal and cardiovascular infrastructure advantages still remain, which can really matter in events like swimming that do not separate athletes by weight class.

As your own statement implies however, there is just not very much data available as transpersons represent an extremely small portion of the population (most surveys seem to suggest less than .5%), and it is more than likely a safe assumption that a similarly small percentage of said .5% are athletes attempting to compete at a national, international, or collegiate amateur level.

The data sample is just too damn small right now for a meaningful study that provides a clear definition of advantages without having the outcomes being poisoned by a social bias. More data is needed, but as societies are trying to manage that knowledge gap, FINA seems to be doing a pretty good job trying to maintain as fair and equitable a practice as possible in sustaining their competitive system.

 

[GAJ]

Sorry if this was posted already.

“It worked!” tweeted Jenner, 72, one of the most high-profile transgender personalities to regularly rail against the likes of Lia Thomas dominating women’s events in the pool.

“I took a lot of heat – but what’s fair is fair!” insisted the former “Keeping Up with the Kardashians” star

“If you go through male puberty you should not be able to take medals away from females. Period,” tweeted Jenner.

Meanwhile, Australian swimming legend Emily Seebohm — a three-time Olympic gold medalist and five-time world champion — told Channel 9 early Monday that she was “100%” relieved by the decision.

“We all feel the same — it’s just we were all too scared to be the first one to say anything,” she told the Australian channel’s “Today Show.”

https://nypost.com/2022/06/20/caitlyn-jenner-emily-seebohm-celebrate-transgender-swimming-ban/

 

[ScarySpikes]

Given your track record on this subject, I would guess that you gravitate towards studies which support your bias on the subject.

The governing body had access to much better information than you are likely to have seen and likely less biased. They examined the data, listened to the experts on the various subjects and gave their ruling.

You want to apply the label of transphobia (how many times have you used that label in this thread?) because their findings didn't match what you wanted them to do.

Be careful of not overusing a label when it doesn't really apply, it will get worned out and ignored in the future if overused in invalid cases.

Why don't you take a look at how many times I've actually used the term transphobia, and who I applied that label to. You might be surprised that I have only applied that label to this organization, not any of the other members here or anyone else. I don't think It's overusing the term to apply it just to this organization for this decision.

I'm at work now, but I'll post up all of the sources I base my opinions on this evening. I have no issue showing my work, and you can decide whether or not you think that peer reviewed studies are credible.

The FINA governing body claims that they had 3 working groups, one of athletes, which included ______________ , another from scientists, which included _______________, another from Human rights experts, which included ______________, they looked at _____________ data and ____________ studies when making their decision.

Oh, there are a lot of blanks there. Yea, it turns out the governing body didn't show any of the basis for their decision, they vaguely gestured at the structure, but there's really no difference between that and just saying 'dude, trust me'

I also want to point out, considering your mention of bias, the one source you provided on Lia Thomas tried to compare her ranking and performance while she was on HRT but still competing in the men's division, to her performance in the women's division. I don't know if you just looked for the first article that said what you wanted, or you actually thought that was acceptable, but the level of bias displayed by doing something that obviously underhanded to try to prove a point is pretty extreme.

 

[Climber]

It was very valid to show Lia's (lack of) success as a man compared to her success as a woman. Why wouldn't it be valid?

If she had similar success as a woman to what she had as a man, then it would support your premise and claims.

 

[byke]

Seems like the studies would need surround a specific person in order to avoid obfuscating the significant difference between "within the gamut" and "at a specific place in the gamut".

 

[ScarySpikes]

It was very valid to show Lia's (lack of) success as a man compared to her success as a woman. Why wouldn't it be valid?

It's not valid because it's incredibly deceptive and dishonest to compare her records while on HRT but competing in the men's division, when the fair comparison would be her performance prior to starting HRT in the men's division.

I already posted this, post 15, here it is again for you.

Thomas began swimming on the men's team at the University of Pennsylvania in 2017, and during her freshman year, recorded a time of 8 minutes and 57.55 seconds in the 1,000-yard freestyle that ranked as the sixth-fastest national men's time, as well as 500-yard freestyle and 1,650-yard freestyle times ranked within the national top 100.[4] On the men's swim team in 2018–2019, Thomas finished second in the men’s 500, 1,000, and 1,650-yard freestyle at the Ivy League championships as a sophomore in 2019.[4][3][7] During the 2018–2019 season, Thomas recorded the top university men's team times in the 500 free, 1000 free, and 1650 free.

Thomas lost muscle mass and strength through testosterone suppression and hormone replacement therapy. Her time for the 500 freestyle is over 15 seconds slower than her personal bests before medically transitioning.[12][13] Thomas's event progression peaked in 2019 for distance swimming, with a drop in times during the 2021–22 season. Her event progression for sprint swimming reflected a dip at the start of 2021–22 season before returning to near-lifetime bests in the 100 free and a lifetime personal best in the 50 free in 2021.[14]

In the 2018–2019 season she was, when competing in the men's team, ranked 554 in the 200 freestyle, 65 in the 500 freestyle, and 32 in the 1650 freestyle. In the 2021–2022 season, those ranks are now, when competing in the women's team, 5 in the 200 freestyle, first in the 500 freestyle, and eight in the 1650 freestyle.[15][16] According to an archived page of the swimming data website Swimcloud, Thomas was ranked 89th among male college swimmers for that season.[17]

In a race during January 2022 at a meet against UPenn's Ivy League rival Yale, Thomas finished in 6th place in the 100m freestyle race, losing to four cisgender women and Iszac Henig, a transgender man, who transitioned without hormone therapy.[18][19]

In March 2022, Thomas became the first openly transgender athlete to win an NCAA Division I national championship in any sport, after winning the women's 500-yard freestyle with a time of 4:33.24; Olympic silver medalist Emma Weyant was second with a time 1.75 seconds behind Thomas.[20][21][22] Thomas did not break any records at the NCAA event, while Kate Douglass broke 18 NCAA records.[23] Thomas was 9.18 seconds short of Katie Ledecky's NCAA record of 4:24.06.[24] In the preliminaries for the 200 freestyle, Thomas finished second. In the final for the 200 freestyle, Thomas placed fifth with a time of 1:43.50. In the preliminaries for the 100 freestyle, Thomas finished tenth. In the finals for the 100 freestyle, Thomas placed eighth out of eight competitors in 48.18 seconds, finishing last.[25]

The March 2022 NCAA championship was Thomas's last college swimming event.[26] By the conclusion of Thomas's swimming career at UPenn in 2022, her rank had moved from 65th on the men's team to 1st on the women's team in the 500-yard freestyle, and 554th on the men's team to 5th on the women's team in the 200-yard freestyle.[27][15] According to the swimming data website Swimcloud, Thomas is ranked 36th among female college swimmers in the United States for the 2021–2022 season,[28] and 46th among women swimmers nationally.[29] According to Sports Illustrated, she has applied for law school and plans to swim at the 2024 Summer Olympics trials.[2]

As a freshman, Lia Thomas was top 6 nationally for the 1000 yard freestyle, top 100 nationally for 500 yard free and 1650 yard free, She was the best swimmer in her school on the men's team, second place finishes in the Ivy League championships, and her times and performance going into sophomore year, before she started on HRT, were only improving. She was not a mediocre performer when she competed on a fair playing field as a man. She went from being one of the best up and coming swimmers in the men's division, to one of the best swimmers in the women's division.

If she had similar success as a woman to what she had as a man, then it would support your premise and claims.

Well, Thanks for admitting that the actual data on her performance, does support my claims.

 

[msethhunter]

I don't need to be a pro level athlete to read scientific studies and current law on treatment for trans people, The credible studies I've found show that real world performance differences between cis and trans woman athletes, after a sufficient length of time on HRT, are either nonexistent or very, very minor, and that athletic ability within cis women has a much wider variation so it's not like we are talking about an absolutely equal playing field anyway. There is absolutely no evidence of trans people being overrepresented in sports generally, nor is there evidence that trans people are overrepresented at the top level of sports specifically. Basically, an understanding of the best science currently available, and an understanding that the legality and access that trans people face both within the US and abroad often make starting transition by age 12 flat out impossible or extremely unlikely.

I don't expect everyday people to be familiar with those studies. I understand that the science does not match with most people's gut reactions and beliefs about the issue, and I think that people can hold those beliefs without actively being transphobic.

I do expect that the governing body of a sports organization to be familiar with those studies. I do expect them to make themselves familiar with the state of laws on treatment of trans people internationally, so, when they make a decision that don't make sense given the science and the legal issues, such as this decision, it smells of transphobia.

You keep saying “all the credible studies I’ve read” yet produce zero proof, the same fucken thing you lambasted me for.


Everything I’ve read from credible sources says you’re pretty damn wrong.

https://www.webmd.com/fitness-exercise/news/20210715/do-trans-women-athletes-have-advantages


https://amp.dw.com/en/fact-check-do-trans-athletes-have-an-advantage-in-elite-sport/a-58583988

“Without hormone therapy — yes. But even with hormone therapy, current research suggests trans women still maintain an edge in strength.“

https://sex-matters.org/posts/sport/a-new-review-of-retained-performance-in-transwomen/


There’s mountains of information available that says you’re flat out wrong. Add to it that trans women are extremely rare in everyday life, and immeasurably even more so in elite level sports, and my conclusion is we should start letting women who have to compete against biologically different specimens use PED’s to compete.

I’ll say it again until you get it dude. Biology isn’t identity. If this were an issue of trans women competing with men…..oh wait. That’s not an issue.