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95 mpg

Fair enough, we all have our circumstances.

My prius can't tow a boat or a trailer with two bikes, agreed. But are you towing a trailer to work everyday? Probably once a month, maybe once a weekend if you're hardcore, which few people are. In which case, you pay to play.

My prius can fit my hockey gear just fine. It could probably fit 2 full size adult bags and gear. I'm not sure what car you have to facilitate 4 peoples though? Sounds like an anomaly to me.

My prius could take me and a few people camping just fine.

My prius probably can't plow through the snow, but 99% of driving done in the Sierras during snow storms is not a problem. CalTrans plows really well!

Besides, I also have a Dodge Ram 2500 diesel for all of that. /thread

My point was simply that you can't compare either utility or cost in a vacuum. You have to consider both. And anyone with an active family/kids/dogs is limited in what they can do in an econobox. There is no way I could drive one without a drastic change in lifestyle and, honestly, having ridden in my neighbors Prius a couple times, I would never put one of my kids in one.
 
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Have you seen any total cost of ownership calculations of a Model S Performance to competitors like the BMW M5, Porsche Panamera S, or Audi S7? There are a few pretty detailed ones floating around the Tesla forums. Take a look, you might be surprised at the result. :thumbup

Please don't tell me you're going to try and compare a 7-passenger luxury sedan that goes 0-60 in 4 seconds to an Accord. That's about as honest as comparing a Prius to a Denali.

You may consider M5, Panamera, or hell maybe even throw in the Quattroporte, Rapide, or Ferrari FF as competition to the Model S. I don't. The Model S is a high performance EV only sedan. It's closest, if only, competitor is the Fisker.

The Tesla is an electric. And electrics have a leash. Suppose you wanted to do a track day at streets of williow. Get in the M5 and drive from SF down South a few hundred miles. Top it off with gas (or do it later) and be on your way. With the Tesla, you're stopping for to charge it. Probably charge it again before the track session. Charge it again after. Another charge on the way home. Guy in the M5 may have blew thru $150 in gas but wasn't inconvenienced very much at all compared to the Tesla owner.

Anyways. I don't foresee many Model S owners going through that scenario. Yes the Model S is fast, but the majority of people who have one aren't going to use them the same way they would, say...an Audi S7. "Let's go to Tahoe this weekend! Should we take the new Tesla?" "Nah I'm not sure if we'll be able to get it charged the whole time, better be just take the <insert ICE powered large GT sedan here>"

My point was cost of ownership of the Tesla compared to the Volt or even a run of the mill Prius. Yes it gets 100MPGe or whatever...but the thing still costs eighty thousand fucking dollars to buy! Oh sure you can the lower range one starting at $60k, but I can't see that many buyers not getting the longer range version.
 
Fair enough, we all have our circumstances.

My prius can't tow a boat or a trailer with two bikes, agreed. But are you towing a trailer to work everyday? Probably once a month, maybe once a weekend if you're hardcore, which few people are. In which case, you pay to play.

My prius can fit my hockey gear just fine. It could probably fit 2 full size adult bags and gear. I'm not sure what car you have to facilitate 4 peoples though? Sounds like an anomaly to me.

My prius could take me and a few people camping just fine.

My prius probably can't plow through the snow, but 99% of driving done in the Sierras during snow storms is not a problem. CalTrans plows really well!

Besides, I also have a Dodge Ram 2500 diesel for all of that. /thread
know a sure way to get fucked with on the ice? showing up to your hockey game in a prius :twofinger
 
We had to close the road for an overturned big rig. Woman pulls up in her Nissan Leaf and says she lives right on the other side. Sorry it's blocked you need to go around.


She pulls back up a minute later. "I forgot I'm in an electric car and I don't have enough charge to get around, I'll have to wait until the roads open"

:laughing
 
Killer post :thumbup
Well, except for a couple of things. There is no electricity cost. The resale number is made-up, financing has nothing to do with anything, and the comparison vehicle is arbitrary.

On the other hand, the gas car will probably cost more in maintenance. And he didn't add in all the incentives. Maybe because he pretends to be a capitalist, but only when it suits his greed. Apparently, he has no problem taking money from other tax payers that don't buy electric cars, like any good socialist thief.
 
You may consider M5, Panamera, or hell maybe even throw in the Quattroporte, Rapide, or Ferrari FF as competition to the Model S. I don't. The Model S is a high performance EV only sedan. It's closest, if only, competitor is the Fisker.

The Tesla is an electric. And electrics have a leash. Suppose you wanted to do a track day at streets of williow. Get in the M5 and drive from SF down South a few hundred miles. Top it off with gas (or do it later) and be on your way. With the Tesla, you're stopping for to charge it. Probably charge it again before the track session. Charge it again after. Another charge on the way home. Guy in the M5 may have blew thru $150 in gas but wasn't inconvenienced very much at all compared to the Tesla owner.

Anyways. I don't foresee many Model S owners going through that scenario. Yes the Model S is fast, but the majority of people who have one aren't going to use them the same way they would, say...an Audi S7. "Let's go to Tahoe this weekend! Should we take the new Tesla?" "Nah I'm not sure if we'll be able to get it charged the whole time, better be just take the <insert ICE powered large GT sedan here>"

My point was cost of ownership of the Tesla compared to the Volt or even a run of the mill Prius. Yes it gets 100MPGe or whatever...but the thing still costs eighty thousand fucking dollars to buy! Oh sure you can the lower range one starting at $60k, but I can't see that many buyers not getting the longer range version.

If that's the argument you're choosing to make, then neither the Volt or Fisker are competitors--as hybrids, neither of them have this "leash." In that case, the Tesla's *only* competitor in the new-car market is the Nissan Leaf, which has essentially the same fuel economy (89 vs 99 MPGe) for half the cost. There is no way the Tesla will EVER win that comparison. Of course, that ignores that the Tesla has four times the range, can recharge for free at a rate of 300mph*, and that it has the performance and appointments of a luxury sport sedan, whilst comparing it to what is essentially a Nissan Versa. It's a completely intellectually dishonest exercise to pretend that the person considering buying a Nissan econobox is also going to be in the market for a premium luxury sedan, so there is absolutely no point in trying to make a cost-of-ownership comparison between them. You *have* to compare them to their actual competitors in the market--cars of similar size, luxury, and performance... which, for the Model S Performance, are those that I listed above.

*I won't argue your point as using the Tesla as a track car, but I certainly would pick it for a trip to Tahoe, or LA, or Vegas, if only for the fact that you can charge FOR FREE along the way... roughly 30 minutes stopped for every 2 hours on the freeway. Compared to a 20mpg ICE sport sedan, that's $160 savings on one round-trip to LA...
 
Well, except for a couple of things. There is no electricity cost. The resale number is made-up, financing has nothing to do with anything, and the comparison vehicle is arbitrary.

On the other hand, the gas car will probably cost more in maintenance. And he didn't add in all the incentives. Maybe because he pretends to be a capitalist, but only when it suits his greed. Apparently, he has no problem taking money from other tax payers that don't buy electric cars, like any good socialist thief.

It's truly the only way Scotland! America...if you can't beat, don't PAY for them...join em!

Electricity is factored into the Volt annual "fuel" numbers, per the government average. That cost is a blended average. I could do it another way: 40 miles for a charge, a charge costs $.09 * 10 (Kw), or $.90, which is $.02/ mile for fuel. On the analysis above, we're looking at $.07/ mile for fuel/ energy...so if anything, it's an overstatement of energy costs.

Financing has alot to do with things. Money costs, well, money and thus when your capital cost is 0%, it's free money, so long as the deal is a good deal. I did not factor in any Honda incentives, however I could not find any out there when I looked according to google and edmunds. I also took Edmunds true value (what others are paying) for the car, new.

My used values are derived from real world numbers and extrapolated. In fact, many times I'm able to call the used value of vehicles I understand well better than KBB is, because knowing the market and the demand helps a lot. I could be off on the Volt resale in 5 years, however as I anticipate the credits to phase out, that will put a price floor on the car that I didn't anticipate in my numbers. What we've seen in the used car market is that fuel efficient cars are selling at a multiple above the gas users. I had to make some assumptions on the 5 year value of the Volt, however that was based on what's happening in the 2 year numbers. Mind you, when lease cars come back on the market, that will drive values down decently...but not a huge amount as normal cars do (which is really why the Acccord does so poorly on real world numbers) as the Volt's haven't sold particularly well. IOW, there shouldn't be a glut in the market place with the earlier models. The key is to get out before 5 years, IMO.

And for the record, I have no problem clawing back what little tax revenue we can. The government takes enough. It's up to the citizen to figure out how to not get fucked as hard...and having a company certainly helps. That's not even factored into this equation, but take either of those vehicles and 179 deduct them and the case for replacement every 3 years is very strong.

Like I said, I hate to admit it, but there wasn't much of a comparison when I was replacing the CTS-V. I loved that car and I loved the idea of more insane HP, but it just doesn't make sense for how I drive and what I do. We replaced my GF's with a much more performance based convertible, non-hybrid type and while I think that will hold its value well enough against the market, in hindsight, a hybrid would have been a better choice for her as well. We'll probably go that route when we sell this latest car of hers.
 
If that's the argument you're choosing to make, then neither the Volt or Fisker are competitors--as hybrids, neither of them have this "leash." In that case, the Tesla's *only* competitor in the new-car market is the Nissan Leaf, which has essentially the same fuel economy (89 vs 99 MPGe) for half the cost. There is no way the Tesla will EVER win that comparison. Of course, that ignores that the Tesla has four times the range, can recharge for free at a rate of 300mph*, and that it has the performance and appointments of a luxury sport sedan, whilst comparing it to what is essentially a Nissan Versa. It's a completely intellectually dishonest exercise to pretend that the person considering buying a Nissan econobox is also going to be in the market for a premium luxury sedan, so there is absolutely no point in trying to make a cost-of-ownership comparison between them. You *have* to compare them to their actual competitors in the market--cars of similar size, luxury, and performance... which, for the Model S Performance, are those that I listed above.

*I won't argue your point as using the Tesla as a track car, but I certainly would pick it for a trip to Tahoe, or LA, or Vegas, if only for the fact that you can charge FOR FREE along the way... roughly 30 minutes stopped for every 2 hours on the freeway. Compared to a 20mpg ICE sport sedan, that's $160 savings on one round-trip to LA...

Yeah the Supercharger is fast. But it's still 30 minutes. Unless you had a burning desire to smell cowshit for half an hour in Coalinga, it's not gonna be a pleasant stop. Or hit the outlet stores in Folsom on you way to Tahoe. Maybe that's something girls wanna do, but most guys just want to get there when it's a trip somewhere. Anything inbetween point a and b is a waste of time. I've been to LA bunches of times. I've stopped in Coalinga (or anywhere along the way) one time for gas and In&Out. I'd have rather just blown through. The thought of me being hostage for half an hour because my car won't make the trip without the stop no matter how good I plan things...that sucks.

Leaf is not the only other EV only car. Honda Fit, Ford Focus, Fiat 500 all join the Leaf as EV econoboxes. And soon the Chevy Spark EV and a few others. Hell, my dad just got a Rav4 EV (which has Model S guts). So there's certainly other EV choices than a Tesla that starts at 60 large. But yeah nobody is cross shopping a Model S to any of those.

There's also the silliness that someone that might cross shop a Panamera or S7 to a Model S, actually truly gives too much of a shit about saving on gas. When I worked for Cadillac, I never really heard the customers bitch that their Escalade averaged 12mpg. You can afford a double priced Tahoe...a huge fuel bill every month ain't breaking the bank.

I see the Model S as a 1%er's trendy green "it" car to have at the moment. It's far too expensive for middle class folks to consider it. And while rich folks certainly don't need to worry about saving money on fuel, it sends the message that they care. It's the same reason why Porsche has a Panamera hybrid, there's a S-class hybrid, or a Lexus LS600hl. Yes they're nice and luxurious, but if saving money on cost of ownership of a new car was really big concern, you'd buy a Leaf or the Volt.
 
Why would the gas car cost more in maintenance? The lead has an internal combustion engine, and every other part that a regular car has, except it also has battery packs that could be expensive to replace if they go bad, along with a ton of other components that don't exist on a gasoline only car.

To me financing isn't a factor because I won't buy a car I can't afford outright. I can see how it would be a factor if you were financing the car though.

We're used to maintenance based on mileage, however it's really time of use, similar to an aircraft: hours on the engine. Doesn't matter if it's working or sitting, if valves are opening and closing, then the engine is enduring wear. A PEV like the Volt only uses the ICE when it needs to and thus, may have very low time on that part of the mechanical. Batteries and hybrid systems are warrantied for 10 years or 150K miles. That's far beyond the powertrain warranties manufacturers are offering these days. I agree that the tech could be an issue and I'm focusing more on the electric water pumps, steering motors, etc, not the batteries. In fact, we've had problems with the electric water pumps in two of our BMW's, so I'm sure the other stuff may be a problem going down the road...HOWEVER, all the cars are using these now, so you can't really get away from it.

Financing should always be a factor because even if you have the cash, the opportunity to use that money in an alternative investment (with a return) is opportunity lost. 0% is free money, no matter how you look at it and not spending your own money is security, if not an ROI on the investment made with such funds.
 
For 6K I would rather buy a Protege5 in mint condition. It handles better, gets about 30mpg, and doesn't make me nervous that I'll need to replace an 800 pound battery pack.

The Volt Battery is about 400 lb and it is warrantied for 8 years and I bet they will last 12-15 years. The 288 individual cells arranged into nine modules. When the battery ages, its all electric range may go from 40-20 mpg and replacing a few of the bad cells may restore the all electric range. So, the battery may weigh 400 lb, but 320 may be battery cells and you my only have to replace 20 lb of battery. The battery is much easier to access in the car than a timing chain or a water pump.

I just finished Bottled Lightning by Seth Fletcher and the book was very pragmatic about the battery tech and electric cars. Lots of information about how there is ~27 million metric tonnes of mineral sources of lithium in reserve and 32 million metric tonnes in the ground around the world. The cost of lithium ion batteries is plummeting, so by the time a Volt owner has to replace some battery sells, the cost will be trivial.

Oh yeah, just like the starter battery in your car, which is toxic lead acid, lithium ion is recycling, but is non-toxic.


Volt-battery.jpg
 
In 2007 I sold my 2000 Mazda Miata for the same price I bought my 2000 Honda Insight. I only drive about 8000 miles a year, but I have saved $5,000, and I have a lot more space in my car for gear since it is a hatch.

The car tells me that I have driven 64 MPG for the time that I have owned the car. The car is on its original brake pads and will be till maybe 130,000 miles because hybrids down waist as much energy via brake pads. I have not had to replace any battery cells myself. I did use a special battery charger/discharge that another Insight owner (99MPG.com) designed and built in his garage to recondition 13 year old batteries. New tech batteries are much better and there is a aftermarket with better tech batteries.

InsightMonoLake.jpg

At Mono Lake
 
The Volt Battery is about 400 lb and it is warrantied for 8 years and I bet they will last 12-15 years.

In some states, most importantly this one, the warranty on the high voltage battery components is 10 years or 100k miles.
 
I'd be more worried about a software bug causing an overcharge situation and the whole thing catching fire in the garage.
 
Rob. in CA it's 150K miles and yeah, 10 years. Kilroy: one thing your hit on but just ran short on: as battery tech advances, batteries get less costly to replace/ produce and also store more energy. Effectively, a PEV owner is able to increase their range simply by updating their battery packs...something other vehicles cannot do.
 
I thought the Volt was a chicks car?

I had a good laugh because my friend had to buy one for his wife. (she "wants to save the world") Now she wants him to get one, because his car spends too much gas. I told my buddy, he may as well cut off his nuts and hand them to her. :laughing

Overpaying for a piece of crap car, just so you can save a little at the pump? Makes no sense. How can you drive such a ugly slow bad handling car and actually brag about liking it? Its like bragging about banging a fat ugly chick. So what if she is nice, and can cook. You still have to get in her every day. :green

Never mind the 240v charger. That car should come with clown pants, shoes and nose. :rofl


My car gets about 12mpg, yet puts a HUGE smile on my face whenever I get inside and drive the shit out of it. Its one of my biggest pleasures in life. Definitely worth the gas money and then some.

Next you guys will be bragging about neutered motorcycles that get 200mpg. Fuck that noise.
 
Volt, like most electric cars or extended range EV or hybrids actually have good road holding due to very low CG. Batteries are below passenger compartment. They go around corners far better than most compacts.

The current gen Insight we have now gets 40mpg driving 60/40 highway and 72-73 on cruise control most of the time. Once you get 40mpg, the first question to ask is 'why only 40?' We'll likely be leasing a Volt soon. Would rather have an all electric car, but I drive 26K miles/year for work, so not feasible.

And to only focus on the cost savings of reduced fuel purchase is really missing at least half of the benefit. Insane petroleum usage causes so many problems in the world. The list is nearly endless.
 
different strokes for different folks.

I thought the Volt was a chicks car?

I had a good laugh because my friend had to buy one for his wife. (she "wants to save the world") Now she wants him to get one, because his car spends too much gas. I told my buddy, he may as well cut off his nuts and hand them to her. :laughing

Overpaying for a piece of crap car, just so you can save a little at the pump? Makes no sense. How can you drive such a ugly slow bad handling car and actually brag about liking it? Its like bragging about banging a fat ugly chick. So what if she is nice, and can cook. You still have to get in her every day. :green

Never mind the 240v charger. That car should come with clown pants, shoes and nose. :rofl


My car gets about 12mpg, yet puts a HUGE smile on my face whenever I get inside and drive the shit out of it. Its one of my biggest pleasures in life. Definitely worth the gas money and then some.

Next you guys will be bragging about neutered motorcycles that get 200mpg. Fuck that noise.
 
Volt, like most electric cars or extended range EV or hybrids actually have good road holding due to very low CG. Batteries are below passenger compartment. They go around corners far better than most compacts.

The current gen Insight we have now gets 40mpg driving 60/40 highway and 72-73 on cruise control most of the time. Once you get 40mpg, the first question to ask is 'why only 40?' We'll likely be leasing a Volt soon. Would rather have an all electric car, but I drive 26K miles/year for work, so not feasible.

And to only focus on the cost savings of reduced fuel purchase is really missing at least half of the benefit. Insane petroleum usage causes so many problems in the world. The list is nearly endless.

Seems obvious to me, Working causes the problems..unless one works at home.
 
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